Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Daniel Clint » Tue, 12 Nov 1996 04:00:00


It was an incredible fight. The crowd at our PPV party was chanting
"Ho-ly-field" in round 6 along with the audience in Vegas. I saw a
slight tremor go through Tyson's legs in either round 1 or 2 and had
realized that something big was going to happen.

Is anyone else concerned by Tyson's post-fight daze, where he
could not remember anything after round 3? I mean it's hard to tell
with an ...intellectually minimal fighter like Tyson, but he seemed
even dimmer than usual several minutes after the fight. I was getting
an uncomfortable feeling that maybe this is a guy who should retire,
or end up like Ali.

Anybody else notice this? Anyone know if he was still dazed the next
morning? Did they cancel a Sunday morning press conference for the
fighters?

Daniel Clinton

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Melanie L » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>Is anyone else concerned by Tyson's post-fight daze, where he
>could not remember anything after round 3?

        Nope.  Have seen this in the amateurs when a boxer has taken a really
hard shot to the head.  Happened to one of our better boxers a year ago.  I
talked to him about 10 minutes after the fight was stopped and he didn't
remember the conversation.  No damage, either.  

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Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Florin Cu » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00



Quote:

>>Is anyone else concerned by Tyson's post-fight daze, where he
>>could not remember anything after round 3?

>    Nope.  Have seen this in the amateurs when a boxer has taken a really
>hard shot to the head.  Happened to one of our better boxers a year ago.  I
>talked to him about 10 minutes after the fight was stopped and he didn't
>remember the conversation.  No damage, either.  

Yup, no damage whatsoever. Kid's doing great. Are you a neurologist, then?

I suppose that this kind of ignorance is pretty common in kick boxing and
boxing gyms, esp. in working class neighborhoods. I've seen it myself. Dumb
youngsters taking tons of hard kicks to head and thinking that it's ok, just
a little painful.  Makes me wonder how many of the kids turning to boxing
are at risk because ignorant officials or trainers assure them that a bit of
post-traumatic amnesia is "nothing to worry about".

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Terence Macaul » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Ditto here. After being ko'ed many fighters don't recall anything. In a
sense , getting ko'ed is painless cause you don't remeber being  ko'ed. I
recall a guy I knocked out. His coach said he didn't remeber anything of
the night and wasn't himself for a week. Shock I guess. He was okay
though. Went on to many other fights and won. The danger I think is when
you are repeatedly ko'ed. Tyson I think still has away to go before that.
He has had a fairly easy go of it so far.

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by pliesenbe » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

For what it's worth, I've received some hard, straight shots
in both sparring and in competition, I once had the somewhat
scary experience of not remembering a friggin' entire
weekend (and that 'though I won the fight), and only
seing the pieces coming together bit by bit when people
reminded me. Sort of the feeling you get when your mother
tells you something you did as a kid, and you're not quite
sure you consciously remember it, or just picture it
based on her description. But you can be pretty sure there's
no brain damage here.

I can't tell 100% about Tyson, as I'm no neurologist and
Tyson doesn't mail me his test results, but based on the
bits we know (loss of memory), the symptom's nothing
out of the ordinary. There's thousands of people who've gone
through the same thing after whacking their head hard
against a cabinet, or playing soccer with friends and
going for a head-shot, or drinking themselves silly on
a Saturday night.

...paul

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Terence Macaul » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Dear Florin,
  Are you a brain surgeon ? Have you boxed yourself ? If you are not then
it is you who are woefully ignorant. One ko is not the problem. Repeated
ko's are. I'm not a brain surgeon but I did box for years. And after
receiving thousands of blow to my head I'm in perfect health. Physically
and mentally. I don't care what some "quack" doctor says about my brain.
Where is their imperical data to support their claims ? According to them
I should be brain dead. But I'm not. Why is that ?

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Derrick Brasslet » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Yup, no damage whatsoever. Kid's doing great. Are you a neurologist, then?

No, I don't believe she is. And your credentials are..?

Quote:
> I suppose that this kind of ignorance is pretty common in kick boxing and
> boxing gyms, esp. in working class neighborhoods.

Yes, those poor slobs need help. I'm sure you're just the kind of person to do
it, right?

Derrick

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Aaro » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

I don't think Tyson has been hit hard enough consistency to have
suffered any brain damage,  I would tend to show more concern with
some of his opponents that he has KOed.  I think it is quite common
for someone to get hit in the head & not remember, it happened to me
once playing hockey, I hit my head on the boards and can't remember a
thing, although the people there said I was fine & was talking ok
after it happened.

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by pliesenbe » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Just pass my time while I'm munching down some homemade
breaded chicken...

Talking loss of memory - in what probably was my most
important fight ever (and the most unecessary one), I
got pummelled badly. I was poorly prepared, and just got
into it due to backward machismo. I sparred with someone
in the gym, his team and mine were to compete, but we'd
been put "on rest" for a major competition we'd qualified
for - for some reason, we wanted to fight each other, really
disliked each other, too, initially.

As it was some imnportant competition, the whole thing
went on national TV. Friends taped it for me, and my
trainer also said he'd video it if he could get a hold
of a camera, but he was pissed off at me and in the
end didn't do it.

If I were to go on about the fight, up to one year
ago I wouldn't have been able to tell you. From
Friday to Tuesday morning, when I woke up totally
lucid, but with the weird awareness of having some missing
days in there. I talked to people, and some of them
told me "oh man, sorry about what happened there on
Sunday - but it was some good fight!" - and I was
"what?". I had thissubconsicous awareness something
had gone wrong and I wouldn't be attending that
one major competition. Which was utterly disappointing.

I was so siappointed in fact, that I forbid anyone to
talk about that weekend. I didn't want to remember it,
and didn't want to recollect the pieces. So I had this
tape from the TV transmission at home that I refused
to watch, too. For years.

Then, last year, I was taking care of the little daughter
of a good friend of mine. She was about 4 years old, and
to keep her busy, I gave her a box with videotapes from
Walt Disney and the like, and hooked up an ancient VCR
to the TV in case she broke anything (but she was bright
handling the VCR). All of a sudden, while I'm reading
in the neighbouring room, I hear the volume all cranked
up, going "and from the Olympia Halle, again, with
the highly anticipated" and I go "oh sh*t" as I slowly
walk towards the TV and see, indeed, myself there, getting
ready. I was hypnotized, as all of a sudden some pieces
came back. That beer add to the left of the ring, the
BMW logo across the ring... the butterflies goin' crazy
in my belly when they anopunced my name, and me looking
very Hearns-like, extending my***towards the other
corner. That picture was back in my head. I know my
ex-girlfriend was in the appartment as well, and
immediately knew what that was, and held my hand. It
was an enjoyable tussle. Not much art, just two guys
trading pretty much clean blows, and the referee letting
it happen without many interruptions, which even back then
was highly unusual in the amateurs. I then remembered
my surprise when I hit the guy with a clean cross, and
he just took a short step back and came back, crowding
me and landing a few hooks. I remembered to how tired and
exhausted I was after the first 3 minutes, when walking
on funny feeling legs, trying to look as steady as
possible, to my corner. Then, I couldn't put anything
together, I just watched a stranger that looked just
like me boxing, landing two clean punches, but eating up
a hellacious haymaker that has him going back two steps,
then to one knee, and then to sit down, shaking his
head going "no, no.". And classily pushing away everyone
who tried to be comforting, rubbing his shoulder. Man,
what a sorry spectacle. Just stood up, touched a glove
with the other boxer and went. I know know that, in
the locker room, I all of a sudden threw up and got
a bit dellirious ('though I didn't claim to have been
visited by the Lord or so), and that they took me
to hospital to be checked. They found nothing wrong,
released me, and I'm told I went to University and
everything on Monday, answered questions correctly in a
tutorial class, and went to sleep very early that day.
On Tuseday, I couldn't recall *anything* about the
last days. But from that Tuseday on, I functioned
just like normal. And didn't recall anything until I
saw that tape, when some bits came back, and some of the
pre-fight events came back to me as well.

The other guy went on to win that major competition.
What was funny is that, when we met later on, we were
quite hearty, and that, when he complimented me on a few
punches and things I did, I was "Geez, I don't remember,
really.". He was like "it took me a week to remember
myself" and burst out laughing. His trainer told me that,
after he'd won, the guy was asking him "What did I do
wrong? Why did I lose?" a few times. Weird stuff.

Then there's many other similar stories. Boxers that
get a new PIN for their cards a few days before a bout,
and can't for the life of them remember it. Or forget
which girlfriend they had a date with, or who they
had bought a present for...

...paul

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Daniel Noah Richardso » Wed, 13 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> Is anyone else concerned by Tyson's post-fight daze, where he
> could not remember anything after round 3? I mean it's hard to tell
> with an ...intellectually minimal fighter like Tyson, but he seemed
> even dimmer than usual several minutes after the fight.

 Actually, Tyson sounds much more articulate than most fighters do when
they are interviewed. I don't know if he got brain damaged though. If he
takes many more beatings like the on he took Saturday, he could get pretty
messed up.

                                 -Danny

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Florin Cu » Thu, 14 Nov 1996 04:00:00



Quote:
>Dear Florin,
>  Are you a brain surgeon ? Have you boxed yourself ?

Just some thai boxing; and I took my share of shin kicks to the head, of
course. And, no, I'm not a neurosurgeon.

Quote:
>If you are not then
>it is you who are woefully ignorant. One ko is not the problem. Repeated
>ko's are.

almost right. Repeated traumas (not necessarily leading to kayos!) tend to
have a cumulative effect, which may or may not be clinically very
obvious. The condition is called post-traumatic encephalopathy, and is very
common in boxers. And a recent study in NEJM (I think) showed that the
degree of brain damage correlates with the number of SPARRING sessions, not
with the number of KOs or bouts.

Quote:
>I'm not a brain surgeon but I did box for years. And after receiving

thousands of blow to my head I'm in perfect health. Physically

Quote:
>and mentally. I don't care what some "quack" doctor says about my brain.  

that's a very foolish attitude. Some doctors are "quacks" indeed, but I'm
talking here about studies published in the scientific literature. Why dont
you do a medline search? try "brain damage boxing".

Quote:
>Where is their imperical data to support their claims ? According to them
>I should be brain dead. But I'm not. Why is that ?

Empirical data <== electroencephalograms, computerized tomography scans and
neuropsychological testing, not to mention brain atrophy seen at
necropsy. Again, the condition might be subclinical, but the damage is
demonstrable.

So beginners must be informed about these risks -- then it's up to them of
course. But they must understand the risk first, not simply take what "coach"
tells them for granted. Why are you pissed about this ?

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Listen-U » Thu, 14 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

> It was an incredible fight. The crowd at our PPV party was chanting
> "Ho-ly-field" in round 6 along with the audience in Vegas. I saw a
> slight tremor go through Tyson's legs in either round 1 or 2 and had
> realized that something big was going to happen.

> Is anyone else concerned by Tyson's post-fight daze, where he
> could not remember anything after round 3? I mean it's hard to tell
> with an ...intellectually minimal fighter like Tyson, but he seemed
> even dimmer than usual several minutes after the fight. I was getting
> an uncomfortable feeling that maybe this is a guy who should retire,
> or end up like Ali.

> Anybody else notice this? Anyone know if he was still dazed the next
> morning? Did they cancel a Sunday morning press conference for the
> fighters?

> Daniel Clinton

Daniel,

Did Tyson suffer brain damage in this fight? Sure he did, he suffered a
mild concussion which accounts for the lapses in memory. Holyfield also
suffered brain damage in this fight. Anytime you take hard punches to the
head you will suffer brain damage.

If you are worried about Tyson, then you should be worried about anyone
laceing on the gloves.

Tony

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by DJ » Thu, 14 Nov 1996 04:00:00


Quote:
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Quote:

> Newsgroups: rec.sport.boxing
> Subject: Re: Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?
> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:49:54 -0600
> Organization: Louisiana State University
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> > Is anyone else concerned by Tyson's post-fight daze, where he
> > could not remember anything after round 3? I mean it's hard to tell
> > with an ...intellectually minimal fighter like Tyson, but he seemed
> > even dimmer than usual several minutes after the fight.

>  Actually, Tyson sounds much more articulate than most fighters do when
> they are interviewed. I don't know if he got brain damaged though. If he
> takes many more beatings like the on he took Saturday, he could get pretty
> messed up.

>                                  -Danny

You're right, Tyson is more articulate than any other fighter I've heard,
atleast with regard to boxing. Holyfield sounds like Mr. Mumbles compared to
Mike, and he sounds less than intelligent when he speaks on non-fight subjects
(H. does.). Witness his appearance on whatever christian talk show I saw him
on...
 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Tod » Thu, 14 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Quote:
>        Nope.  Have seen this in the amateurs when a boxer has taken a really
>hard shot to the head.  Happened to one of our better boxers a year ago.  I
>talked to him about 10 minutes after the fight was stopped and he didn't
>remember the conversation.  No damage, either.  

It is possible, Mel, that he has suffered a concussion.  Speaking as someone
who had one once, a prime symptom is spaciness that can last for months on
end.  Unfortunately, I had a fight with a metal shelf . . . and got KO'd in
the first.  ;-)

That accumulation of accidental head butts may have done it.  Wouldn't
surprise me.

Todd

 
 
 

Tyson's Risk of Brain Damage?

Post by Melanie L » Fri, 15 Nov 1996 04:00:00

Quote:

>So beginners must be informed about these risks -- then it's up to them of
>course. But they must understand the risk first, not simply take what "coach"
>tells them for granted. Why are you pissed about this ?

        Amateur beginners are informed.  Safety is the first priority in the
amateurs.  Coaches train from a safety standpoint.  Referees work on the rule
that safety is the primary concern.  Johns Hopkins has done a study on amateur
boxers using a group that had both sparred and competed.  No significant changes
have been recorded.  Those of us who have posted on this thread with examples of
reactions to blows to the head are all, or have been, involved in amateur boxing
- not the pros.  

        You might try setting up a research group of pros you can track for a
long period of time and report back your findings.  It helps if you have
first-hand knowledge of actual case studies or incidences in a larger group,
rather than the well-known names who are NOT the majority.

___________________________
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|  \/  |___| |          
| |\/| / -_) |      
|_|  |_\___|_|        

This grandma loves boxing!
The latest word on amateur boxing can be found at:  
http://www.amateur-boxing.com/index.htm        
___________________________________________