Camacho Jr = no heart

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Ryan Wiss » Mon, 09 Jul 2001 15:00:18


The title says it all

Ryan Wissow

http://www.fightsonvhs.com

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by IHateRap20 » Mon, 09 Jul 2001 15:52:42

Quote:

>The title says it all

Yea what a horrible fighter. The cut was not serious and you could totally tell
camacho could see fine. What a pansy, yea Camacho better not get in the ring
with Tszyu or Judah or its lights out.

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Robert Phillip » Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:44:58

Quote:

> >The title says it all
> Yea what a horrible fighter. The cut was not serious and you could totally tell
> camacho could see fine.

I'm going to say something unpopular here (surprise!), but....there's no way we can
know how well Camacho could see.  I agree 100% that based on the *** of the cut
itself, Camacho probably could and probably should have continued.  There have been
worse cuts, and Jesse was cut, blah blah blah.  However, it wasn't really the cut
or the *** that Camacho seemed to be really complaining about, so all of our
comparisons with Leija's cuts, or other fighters' cuts, are really immaterial.
Camacho said his vision was *blurry*, and that's a different matter.  I have no
idea if he was telling the truth - I suspect he wasn't, and I agreed with the
suspicion that someone in his corner knew the cut could handicap him to the point
of losing a decision or something.  I definitely think he said all the right things
to get the fight stopped at a fairly convenient time.  Thing is, though, there's no
way to demonstrate that he could see "fine."  We can tell that the cut is or is not
bleeding, but we can't tell from our TV screens whether or not his vision was
blurred in that eye.  And, though I don't have any medical training, I don't think
that's something that a ringside doctor can assess immediately, either.  That said,
all you can do in the interest of fighter safety, is to play it safe - if the guy
says he can't see, or that his vision is blurry.....you gotta stop the fight,
despite whatever prejudices and doubts you may have.
I hadn't had Camacho on much of a pedestal coming into this fight.  Had nothing
against him, but being a big fan of his father didn't necessarily translate into me
being a fan of Jr.  I'm disappointed in him, and I suppose my opinion of him
drops.  But I was mostly neutral about him.  I do think I've learned a little about
what he's got inside (or what he does NOT have inside), based if nothing else on
his attitude during his interview.  Clearly, he wanted no part of a Leija rematch,
and he didn't even follow the traditional script and give the usual "anytime,
anywhere" lip service that most fighters adhere to.
It was very clear that Leija wanted to capitalize on his experience - he *was*
trying some rough stuff on Camacho throughout the bout, and it was working.
Camacho's inexperience relative to Leija was quite apparent and he was clearly
rattled by it.  Leija knew it, too, thus his "we know what happened!" comments to
Camacho after the bout.

Pie

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by The Casual Fa » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:03:44

Quote:
>but we can't tell from our TV screens whether or not his vision was
>blurred in that eye.  And, though I don't have any medical training, I
>don't think that's something that a ringside doctor can assess
>immediately, either.  That said, all you can do in the interest of fighter
>safety, is to play it safe - if the guy says he can't see, or that his
>vision is blurry.....you gotta stop the fight, despite whatever
>prejudices and doubts you may have.

I will agree with that, but... Do you stop the fight and go to the
scorecards, or do you stop the fight via TKO?
 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Melanie Le » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:01:26

On Sun, 8 Jul 2001 13:03:44 -0500, "The Casual Fan"

Quote:

>>but we can't tell from our TV screens whether or not his vision was
>>blurred in that eye.  And, though I don't have any medical training, I
>>don't think that's something that a ringside doctor can assess
>>immediately, either.  That said, all you can do in the interest of fighter
>>safety, is to play it safe - if the guy says he can't see, or that his
>>vision is blurry.....you gotta stop the fight, despite whatever
>>prejudices and doubts you may have.

>I will agree with that, but... Do you stop the fight and go to the
>scorecards, or do you stop the fight via TKO?

        If it was stopped due to a cut caused by an accidental clash
of heads, don't the rules state going to the scorecards?  

Mel

Amateur Boxing News at
www.amateurboxing.com

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Matt Teg » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:14:12

Quote:


> > >The title says it all
> > Yea what a horrible fighter. The cut was not serious and you could totally tell
> > camacho could see fine.

> I'm going to say something unpopular here (surprise!), but....there's no way we can
> know how well Camacho could see.  I agree 100% that based on the *** of the cut
> itself, Camacho probably could and probably should have continued.  There have been
> worse cuts, and Jesse was cut, blah blah blah.  However, it wasn't really the cut
> or the *** that Camacho seemed to be really complaining about, so all of our
> comparisons with Leija's cuts, or other fighters' cuts, are really immaterial.
> Camacho said his vision was *blurry*, and that's a different matter.  I have no
> idea if he was telling the truth - I suspect he wasn't, and I agreed with the
> suspicion that someone in his corner knew the cut could handicap him to the point
> of losing a decision or something.  I definitely think he said all the right things
> to get the fight stopped at a fairly convenient time.  Thing is, though, there's no
> way to demonstrate that he could see "fine."  We can tell that the cut is or is not
> bleeding, but we can't tell from our TV screens whether or not his vision was
> blurred in that eye.  And, though I don't have any medical training, I don't think
> that's something that a ringside doctor can assess immediately, either.  That said,
> all you can do in the interest of fighter safety, is to play it safe - if the guy
> says he can't see, or that his vision is blurry.....you gotta stop the fight,
> despite whatever prejudices and doubts you may have.
> I hadn't had Camacho on much of a pedestal coming into this fight.  Had nothing
> against him, but being a big fan of his father didn't necessarily translate into me
> being a fan of Jr.  I'm disappointed in him, and I suppose my opinion of him
> drops.  But I was mostly neutral about him.  I do think I've learned a little about
> what he's got inside (or what he does NOT have inside), based if nothing else on
> his attitude during his interview.  Clearly, he wanted no part of a Leija rematch,
> and he didn't even follow the traditional script and give the usual "anytime,
> anywhere" lip service that most fighters adhere to.
> It was very clear that Leija wanted to capitalize on his experience - he *was*
> trying some rough stuff on Camacho throughout the bout, and it was working.
> Camacho's inexperience relative to Leija was quite apparent and he was clearly
> rattled by it.  Leija knew it, too, thus his "we know what happened!" comments to
> Camacho after the bout.

> Pie

From a guy who second guessed a more obvious injury from Derrick
Jefferson against Maskaev, this IMO is an ironic statement.

Matt Tegen

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by The Sanity Cruze » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 05:05:51



Quote:

> > > >The title says it all
> > > Yea what a horrible fighter. The cut was not serious and you could
totally tell
> > > camacho could see fine.

> > I'm going to say something unpopular here (surprise!), but....there's no
way we can
> > know how well Camacho could see.  I agree 100% that based on the ***
of the cut
> > itself, Camacho probably could and probably should have continued.
There have been
> > worse cuts, and Jesse was cut, blah blah blah.  However, it wasn't
really the cut
> > or the *** that Camacho seemed to be really complaining about, so all
of our
> > comparisons with Leija's cuts, or other fighters' cuts, are really
immaterial.
> > Camacho said his vision was *blurry*, and that's a different matter.  I
have no
> > idea if he was telling the truth - I suspect he wasn't, and I agreed
with the
> > suspicion that someone in his corner knew the cut could handicap him to
the point
> > of losing a decision or something.  I definitely think he said all the
right things
> > to get the fight stopped at a fairly convenient time.  Thing is, though,
there's no
> > way to demonstrate that he could see "fine."  We can tell that the cut
is or is not
> > bleeding, but we can't tell from our TV screens whether or not his
vision was
> > blurred in that eye.  And, though I don't have any medical training, I
don't think
> > that's something that a ringside doctor can assess immediately, either.
That said,
> > all you can do in the interest of fighter safety, is to play it safe -
if the guy
> > says he can't see, or that his vision is blurry.....you gotta stop the
fight,
> > despite whatever prejudices and doubts you may have.
> > I hadn't had Camacho on much of a pedestal coming into this fight.  Had
nothing
> > against him, but being a big fan of his father didn't necessarily
translate into me
> > being a fan of Jr.  I'm disappointed in him, and I suppose my opinion of
him
> > drops.  But I was mostly neutral about him.  I do think I've learned a
little about
> > what he's got inside (or what he does NOT have inside), based if nothing
else on
> > his attitude during his interview.  Clearly, he wanted no part of a
Leija rematch,
> > and he didn't even follow the traditional script and give the usual
"anytime,
> > anywhere" lip service that most fighters adhere to.
> > It was very clear that Leija wanted to capitalize on his experience - he
*was*
> > trying some rough stuff on Camacho throughout the bout, and it was
working.
> > Camacho's inexperience relative to Leija was quite apparent and he was
clearly
> > rattled by it.  Leija knew it, too, thus his "we know what happened!"
comments to
> > Camacho after the bout.

> > Pie

> From a guy who second guessed a more obvious injury from Derrick
> Jefferson against Maskaev, this IMO is an ironic statement.

> Matt Tegen

The *** writes ad nauseum how he could not determine if Camacho was
telling the truth and then goes on to talk about what Camacho "does NOT have
inside".  You either stand in judgement of Camacho or you don't.

What an *** (this could refer to Camacho or Pie).

                                                                       TSC

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Bob Shee » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:25:32

Regardless of Camacho's visual acuity, it's the ringside judges whose
eyesight obviously failed them.  On my TV, Leija clearly won the
abbreviated fight.

When your name is Jesse James, you're not supposed to be the robbery
victim.  

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by The Sanity Cruze » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:17:11


Quote:

> When your name is Jesse James, you're not supposed to be the robbery
> victim.

Did you notice he named his kids James and Dean?

                                         TSC

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by YoBro5 » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:33:39

Quote:
>If it was stopped due to a cut caused by an accidental clash
>of heads, don't the rules state going to the scorecards?  

The cut wasnt that bad.
 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Robert Phillip » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:34:28

Quote:


> > I'm going to say something unpopular here (surprise!), but....there's no way we can
> > know how well Camacho could see......(snip)
> > Pie
> From a guy who second guessed a more obvious injury from Derrick
> Jefferson against Maskaev, this IMO is an ironic statement.
> Matt Tegen

Sure it is.  As I said in another post, every fight and every fighter is different, and we
all are completely convinced of our own interpretations of what we're seeing.  *In general*,
I'm inclined to give fighters the benefit of the doubt where claims of injury or pain are
concerned, whether it be because of a thumb, a low blow, whatever.  That's not a hard and
fast rule and there have been many times when I'm totally convinced that a fighter is
faking.  I see the irony there, but not the fatal contradiction.  It would be foolish to make
blanket statements that "all fighters fake injury" or "fighters never fake injury."  I, like
everyone else, reserve the right to have individual reactions to different circumstances.
Speaking of irony, isn't it ironic that someone who contributes to a site dedicated to
accuracy in boxing reporting has such a faulty memory of my position in that whole debate?
;)  Just teasing, Matt.
I thought at the time (and have never had any reason to reconsider) that Jefferson used his
injury as a convenient way to get out of a fight that after first-round knockdowns, he knew
he was in real danger of losing by KO.  And he was therefore in real danger of losing
whatever professional momentum he had developed.  To that extent, there might be real
comparisons to be made with Camacho's quitting against Leija.  Camacho had no prior KO loss
to worry about, but I do think he was conscious of the threat to his position in the sport
and seized (very possibly at his corner's urging) the opportunity to use an injury as an
excuse to get out of a fight he was in real danger of losing.
As for Jefferson, I questioned the severity and even the existence of the injury initially,
but as the official report came out, I freely acknowledged it.  What never wavered, though,
was my belief that Jefferson was eager to have the referee stop the fight because of his
ankle and not because of his chin.  And that was the proper crux of the debate, as far as I'm
concerned.  If people wish to remember it instead as me denying that he was injured, well,
the proof to the contrary is available via the Google.com archives.  In particular, if you're
interested, see my comments from 09/19/2000 in the "Jefferson Out" thread, in response to

I don't wish to reopen the Jefferson debate; it got played to death the first time around.
Anyone who wishes to take issue with the above, please see the original thread(s); any
dispute you might have was already offered, repeatedly, by someone else.  ;)  So I shan't
take part in it this time.  I just wanted to clarify what I think was Matt's simplistic
recollection and presentation of my position.  I'm quite good enough at making myself look
like a goof without meaning to; I appreciate Matt's assistance in the effort, but it's rather
unnecessary.  :)

Pie

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Robert Phillip » Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:47:32

Quote:

> Good points, Rob.  We need a new rule: if you quit on your own decision or
> your corner throws it, then the fight should go to the other guy.  BTW,
> that is what used to be 10 years ago: no exceptions of any kind.  It was
> too cruel for some people, so rules are changed.  We need to reexamine them.
> DH

...I dunno about that.  I think that might place too much faith in the absolute
infallibility of referees and/or ringside doctors to instantly assess whether a
fighter is hurt or in imminent danger or injury (or worse).  I think it might be an
occasionally necessary safety-valve to give injured fighters the opportunity, or the
right, to in effect say that "hey, I'm hurt, even though I can't convince the
referee, so I shouldn't be pushed out there recklessly at threat of an unjust loss."

And to that extent it's not important whether Camacho, or any fighter, indeed
suffers a meaningful injury.  The possibility of serious or imminent injury is IMO
enough.
To give referees the unquestioned ability to tell a fighter, "*I* think you're
healthy enough to continue, so regardless of what you think, you'll either continue
or lose" is dangerous.  Referees and ringside doctors can't possibly be astute
enough to accurate assess every fighter's condition.
Use the Camacho fight as an example, if you wish.  The possibility does exist that
Camacho's vision *was* blurry, for specific medical reasons that Camacho himself
shouldn't be expected to know how to explain.  The doctor doesn't recognize it, the
referee doesn't believe it, but what if Camacho was telling the truth?  The existing
rules, at least, in this case, give Camacho a way to get a just result.  Otherwise,
he gets pushed out in a handicapped state to try to salvage the fight, and all
because the officials charged with his safety didn't believe him and didn't realize
that his vision actually was blurry.
This just might be a case that maybe slips through the cracks, that there's no 100%
satisfying resolution to.  I don't know.  I do think it's important to safeguard
fighter safety while at the same time preserving their legitimate right to win
fights fairly.  I also think that people are confusing two separate issues:  the
rules that send this fight to the scorecards how they did, upon Camacho's claim of
injury, and their outrage at the poor scoring that gave Camacho the decision once
the fight did reach the scorecards.  If the scoring had gone to Leija as it should
have (and very possibly, if Hector's name wasn't Camacho Jr.), I don't think so many
people would be fretting about the nuances of the NYSAC cut/technical decision
rules.  But the scoring debate is really separate from the debate of the
circumstances that allowed Camacho to win the technical decision.

Pie

 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Al Bard » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:32:42



Quote:

> The title says it all

If Hector Jr is willing to move up to 154, there's a fight with De La
Hoya waiting for him<g>.
--
Al Bardo
 
 
 

Camacho Jr = no heart

Post by Al Bard » Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:34:02


Quote:
> 'm going to say something unpopular here (surprise!), but....there's no way we can
> know how well Camacho could see.

His actual statement was,"I can't see going ahead with this fight,
because I'm about to get my ass kicked!"
--
Al Bardo