46 years ago today

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Thu, 07 Feb 2013 10:14:04


(in 4 hours, i.e.).

Did you watch it live on tee-wee?

http://youtu.be/TIKAuef0DHE

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by para.. » Fri, 08 Feb 2013 06:28:20

Quote:

> (in 4 hours, i.e.). Did you watch it live on tee-wee? http://youtu.be/TIKAuef0DHE

Cosell made one cogent point during that bout: "this is not an exiting fight". That was true then and remains so after some 46 years.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:21:27

Most of Ali's fights were slowish; biggest snooze-fest
was vs. Mac Foster.

There are rumors that he is nearing the end; even those of
us who never cared for him have been saddened by his
worsening condition and graded misery.

However, his tainted career and the coddling he received
must never be forgotten. Why these allowances were made
will never be known. When Boxing was finished with him,
he finally got a taste of the other side when he lost
that questionable decision in the Trevor Berbick bout.

In this fight vs Ernie, he should have been dq'd.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by para.. » Sat, 09 Feb 2013 05:50:45

Quote:



> Most of Ali's fights were slowish; biggest snooze-fest

> was vs. Mac Foster.

> There are rumors that he is nearing the end; even those of

> us who never cared for him have been saddened by his

> worsening condition and graded misery.

> However, his tainted career and the coddling he received

> must never be forgotten. Why these allowances were made

> will never be known. When Boxing was finished with him,

> he finally got a taste of the other side when he lost

> that questionable decision in the Trevor Berbick bout.

> In this fight vs Ernie, he should have been dq'd.


                    > There are rumors that he is nearing the end; even those of
us who never cared for him have been saddened by his
worsening condition and graded misery.<

He's either 71 or 72 YOA now and the Parkinson's has taken a huge toll over the years. I was always turned off by his racial comments during the early part of his career and was never a huge fan of Clay/Ali, but like many, I don't like seeing him in this condition either. Maybe we can get something of an idea where he was coming from by the incident that happened soon after he had won the Olympic gold medal and was refused service at a restaurant in his home town in Louisville, KY. Right after that incident, he threw that medal into the Ohio river from atop the Sherman Minton bridge and soon moved out of the city and established permanent residence in Chicago.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Sat, 09 Feb 2013 09:09:27

 He's either 71 or 72 YOA now and the Parkinson's has taken a huge toll over the years. I was always turned off by his racial comments during the early part of his career and was never a huge fan of Clay/Ali, but like many, I don't like seeing him in this condition either. Maybe we can get something of an idea where he was coming from by the incident that happened soon after he had won the Olympic gold medal and was refused service at a restaurant in his home town in Louisville, KY. Right after that incident, he threw that medal into the Ohio river from atop the Sherman Minton bridge and soon moved out of the city and established permanent residence in Chicago.>

Turned 71 in January. As he said: "...No Viet Cong ever called me a ni**er..."

Have cited this list often over the years:

Outright cheating---Cooper 1---disgraceful
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncalled for stoppages:
Daniels--- Clay was getting outpointed, cut was not bothering Daniels
Logan--did not appear hurt in the slightest
Lyle--- a hasty halt
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bad decisions:

worst--Shavers
Frazier II---Ali clutch fest
Norton II, III
Spinks II
Jones
Young
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Terrell---repeated fouls by Ali
Bonavena---far worse than in Terrell---a wrestling match
Both should have = dq
------------------------------------------------------------------
Foreman---a "1984" type of setup: Foreman had zero chance to win (per Mobutu and Don King) in Zaire, now the Dem Repub of the Congo. "Ali, boom bye yay."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frazier III: amazingly, despite the avalanche of clutch-and-grab, Ali was ahead on all cards. Joe was chagrined by his corner's action, esp. when he learned Ali was ready to quit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is a total of 15 fights that may/should have gone the other way, not even including the two-Liston, whose mysteries remain.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are those who claim that both Chuvalo nods went the wrong way although they are in the minority. Many also point to the Banks stoppage as being unwarranted----that's a tough call, given what happened to Sonny a few years later.

In Frazier 1, the 'whole world was watching'----Ali is the only one in the world who thought he won so it was on the level.

And then there was Berbick----could have gone either way----the streak of good fortune finally got its closing call.

For a man with his speed and coordination, it's a disconcerting tabulate.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by Emanuel Ber » Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:23:38

No doubt, Mr. Ali is a great champ and great human being. His Olympic
and professional record speak for themselves. Although the general
(non-boxing) public may have certain moronic notions about him, this
half-fictitious mythology does not in the least diminish what he
actually did, in the ring, and in his life.

I don't believe for a second that he is a racist. He was sometimes
disrespectful of fellow black boxers, and that disrespect may have had
a touch of racism if you chose to interpret it that way (I don't). He
would probably also think that black boxers have superior stamina
(even more important back then: 15 rounds), and superior boxing skills
(because they don't want to get hit - there is no Mexican machoism to
it, anyway) - I guess this is "positive racism"? - again, I don't
agree.

As for his medical condition, is is worth thinking about that such a
guy - intelligent outside and inside the ring, defensive in nature,
*very* fresh until late in his career (although he lost speed during
his absence, his body was barely marked by his trade), ... but he took
punishment late in his career, for sure. Although boxing is dangerous
and everybody knows it, sometimes you trick yourself into thinking
that such things happens to guys like Margarito and Arreola, not the
Alis, Khans, etc., ...

The Foreman fight: you say that was a setup - well, how so? For
example, Foreman was injured during preparations (and those took place
"in country") and the fight had to be postponed: Ali and everyone was
surely frustrated by this (as preparation is cumulative with the fight
as the climax). So he (Foreman) was given the shot. Although there
might have been this and that around the whole arrangement, this is
OK, and normal. If Sweden plays Canada in hockey, and the referee is
American (and pro-Canada), and Canadian girls are "disturbing" the
Swedish players so they won't get any sleep and be emotionally
exhausted, etc., so what? If Sweden loses, it doesn't mean there was a
fix: rather, they blew it.

--
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
Norge, s?ker jobb: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/brev_no.pdf
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Sun, 10 Feb 2013 10:19:35

Quote:

> No doubt, Mr. Ali is a great champ and great human being. His Olympic and professional record speak for themselves. Although the general (non-boxing) public may have certain moronic notions about him, this half-fictitious mythology does not in the least diminish what he actually did, in the ring, and in his life. I don't believe for a second that he is a racist. He was sometimes disrespectful of fellow black boxers, and that disrespect may have had a touch of racism if you chose to interpret it that way (I don't). He would probably also think that black boxers have superior stamina (even more important back then: 15 rounds), and superior boxing skills (because they don't want to get hit - there is no Mexican machoism to it, anyway) - I guess this is "positive racism"? - again, I don't agree. As for his medical condition, is is worth thinking about that such a guy - intelligent outside and inside the ring, defensive in nature, *very* fresh until late in his career (although he lost speed during his absence, his body was barely marked by his trade), ... but he took punishment late in his career, for sure. Although boxing is dangerous and everybody knows it, sometimes you trick yourself into thinking that such things happens to guys like Margarito and Arreola, not the Alis, Khans, etc., ... The Foreman fight: you say that was a setup - well, how so? For example, Foreman was injured during preparations (and those took place "in country") and the fight had to be postponed: Ali and everyone was surely frustrated by this (as preparation is cumulative with the fight as the climax). So he (Foreman) was given the shot. Although there might have been this and that around the whole arrangement, this is OK, and normal. If Sweden plays Canada in hockey, and the referee is American (and pro-Canada), and Canadian girls are "disturbing" the Swedish players so they won't get any sleep and be emotionally exhausted, etc., so what? If Sweden loses, it doesn't mean there was a fix: rather, they blew it. -- Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below) Norge, s?ker jobb: http://SportToday.org/~embe8573/brev_no.pdf computer projects: http://SportToday.org/~embe8573 internet activity: http://SportToday.org/

Foreman wanted to leave the country, Mobutu said "No." Everywhere he went, Foreman heard: "Ali, kill him." The loosened ropes were no accident.

In this fight, Ali relied on the rabbit punch but was never penalized. The Big Guy was lured** to Zaire but will never admit it; he truly admires and respects Ali, and there was never anyting to bve gained by complaining ex post facto.

**It's similar to the way the Texans wound up getting JFK in Dallas. Why would the Big Guy want to fight in Africa------he should have been dictating the terms: that's where Don King waltzed in, the master of the self-serving plan.

Little did the Boxing world know how much damage a ***er from Cleveland would inflict on it.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by Emanuel Ber » Mon, 11 Feb 2013 06:24:52

Quote:

> Foreman wanted to leave the country, Mobutu said "No." Everywhere he
> went, Foreman heard: "Ali, kill him." The loosened ropes were no
> accident.

Things like that are bound to happen in any competition, in any sport,
in all walks of life, anywhere - there are few things that are as fair
as boxing (just an empty ring, with two guys beating each other up) -
but if you take into account every detail that might affect the
outcome (apart from what constitutes the fighters) not even boxing is
100% fair, and it will never be. Say that the shouting, the ropes,
etc., reduced the "fairness" from 100% to 98% (just a figure): that's
still far from a setup or fix; in all that matters, it's fair.

Of course Foreman respects Ali!

I actually saw that fight not long ago. I admit, some of it (goes for
both boxers) didn't look that good, but in general, it was a though
fight, for sure. Ali didn't rely on the rabbit punch - not the least,
it was the straight right that gave Foreman a hard time.

--
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
Norge, s?ker jobb: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/brev_no.pdf
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:10:04

With Ali, there were just too many examples of off kilter occurrences and bad decisions to be pure coincidence, from Logan and Daniels to Spinks II (see above).

Yes, he was a genius in promotional ability and was charismatic to the max (and
right about Vietnam) but 'somebody down here liked him' when there was controversy in the ring.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by Emanuel Ber » Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:59:59

Quote:

> With Ali, there were just too many examples of off kilter
> occurrences and bad decisions to be pure coincidence, from Logan and
> Daniels to Spinks II (see above).

I'll try to find those fights and get back to you.

But I can say already at this point, the decisions have to be really
lousy for me to believe in some grander scheme of things. If Ali won
some close fights as the marquee name of boxing, I have no problem
with that. But let's not rush things (I never want to say a word about
a fight I didn't see).

As it happened, the Spinks II fight was easy to find:

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/4136602/%5BBOXING%5D_
  Muhammad_Ali_vs_Leon_Spinks_II_-_1978

--
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
Norge, s?ker jobb: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/brev_no.pdf
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:55:41

Logan was removed from YouTube; that may be a trend.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by Emanuel Ber » Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:01:29

Quote:

> Logan was removed from YouTube; that may be a trend.

Are you really into *** thinking or are you just flirting with
it, as a joke?

I just saw the Spinks II fight. Although I have Ali winning, it was a
close fight; you could have it a draw, or even a Spinks fight. But
there was certainly no robbery: Ali was very seldom caught cleanly,
and he was never seriously hurt or even remotely dominated by Spinks.

But this was fun - if you ever find those other fights you mention, be
sure to tell me.

--
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
Norge, s?ker jobb: http://SportToday.org/~embe8573/brev_no.pdf
computer projects: http://SportToday.org/~embe8573
internet activity: http://SportToday.org/

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by sugarlansk.. » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 07:32:07

Many other champions employed the legal tactic of holding but none was as brazen as Ali. There was no one else who was as prolific a holder,  as consistent a clutch-and-grab artist. Maybe that strikes you as fair; you certainly wouldn't be alone. But as a great woman once said: "You can't establish facts by voting..."

That is an ethical imperative.

 
 
 

46 years ago today

Post by Emanuel Ber » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 03:00:19

Quote:
> Many other champions employed the legal tactic of holding but none
> was as brazen as Ali. There was no one else who was as prolific a
> holder, as consistent a clutch-and-grab artist.

So *there* is where the shoe hurts! Why didn't you just tell me :)

No, I don't like holding at all!

Did you see Bernard Hopkins vs. Joe Calzaghe? "Certainly not a
classic" (as the British commentators put it).

And I remember hos impressed Roy Jones was during the Pacquiao
onslaught at the end of the the fifth round (in their fourth fight):
"And Marquez won't hold! Marquez refuses to hold!"

But that discussion is of another flavour - you think that the
referee, and a lot of other referees before and after him, should have
banned Ali out of the game for good (or made him change his ring
behaviour). While that would have been... interesting, it didn't
happen; and Ali is the champ in the only boxing circus we have, namely
that which exists.

But I see your point now - it is all clear.

--
Emanuel Berg - programmer (hire me! CV below)
Norge, s?ker jobb: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/brev_no.pdf
computer projects: http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
internet activity: http://home.student.uu.se/embe8573