Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Steve Treller » Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:15:19


if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs Walcott
and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.
 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Pastor Mar » Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:09:48


Quote:
> if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs Walcott
> and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.

Charles was in his prime as a lightheavyweight, and I think Marciano would
have beaten him.

Walcott was as good the night he fought Rocky as he was at any other time in
his career. His prime would probably have been the mid to late forties, and
I would have picked Rocky three times out of four over Walcott.

Every punch Rocky landed to the arms and body made you hurt. He looks like
he would have been easy pickings for guys like Lewis and Holmes and Ali, and
maybe he would have been, but people either forget or don't realize what a
bruising fighter he was.

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by DCI » Mon, 05 Dec 2005 10:40:22



Quote:
>if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs Walcott
>and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.

Marcia no was 29 years old when he won the championship. Was he in his
prime? He was 23 1/2 years old when He fought his first pro fight in
March of 1947.

What Marcia no really wanted to do in the sports world was to play
professional baseball. He played catcher but it was determined early
on that he couldn't hit. Thus a chance at having a pro career in
baseball was sealed by opinion.

DCI

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Loki » Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:13:50



Quote:
>if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs Walcott
>and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.

12 or 15 round fights?

Loki

With the holidays approaching, to support
our men and women overseas who may
not be getting packages from home, you can
get some ideas as to how to do so at:
http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm

It is a non profit, volunteer run organization.

I encourage everyone to check it out,
respond from the heart, and pass it
along to anyone you think may want
to remember our overseas military personnel,
especially at this time of year.

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Steve Treller » Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:22:02

15 rounder

Quote:


>>if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs Walcott
>>and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.

> 12 or 15 round fights?

> Loki

> With the holidays approaching, to support
> our men and women overseas who may
> not be getting packages from home, you can
> get some ideas as to how to do so at:
> http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm

> It is a non profit, volunteer run organization.

> I encourage everyone to check it out,
> respond from the heart, and pass it
> along to anyone you think may want
> to remember our overseas military personnel,
> especially at this time of year.

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Gil » Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:21:50

Charles might be able to eek out a victory, but Marciano wins the
fights more than he loses.

Since he fought both of these fighters anyway, what point is this
thread? In fact, he fought them both twice.

Gil

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Loki » Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:45:01



Quote:
>Charles might be able to eek out a victory, but Marciano wins the
>fights more than he loses.

>Since he fought both of these fighters anyway, what point is this
>thread? In fact, he fought them both twice.

>Gil

It is akin to asking how Leon Spinks would have done against a prime
Ali.

Loki

With the holidays approaching, to support
our men and women overseas who may
not be getting packages from home, you can
get some ideas as to how to do so at:
http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm

It is a non profit, volunteer run organization.

I encourage everyone to check it out,
respond from the heart, and pass it
along to anyone you think may want
to remember our overseas military personnel,
especially at this time of year.

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Loki » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:29:11



Quote:
>15 rounder




>>>if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs Walcott
>>>and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.

>> 12 or 15 round fights?

The longer the fight was, the better Marciano's chances would have
been. Prime Ezzard Charles was a light heavyweight and would have had
difficulty keeping Rocky at bay for 15 rounds. Prime Walcott would
have been the favorite in a 12 round affair, and a 15 rounder would
have been pick 'em.

Loki

With the holidays approaching, to support
our men and women overseas who may
not be getting packages from home, you can
get some ideas as to how to do so at:
http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm

It is a non profit, volunteer run organization.

I encourage everyone to check it out,
respond from the heart, and pass it
along to anyone you think may want
to remember our overseas military personnel,
especially at this time of year.

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by DCI » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:55:12



Quote:
>Charles might be able to eek out a victory, but Marciano wins the
>fights more than he loses.

>Since he fought both of these fighters anyway, what point is this
>thread? In fact, he fought them both twice.

>Gil

Maybe he thinks Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott are ready now.

DCI

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Bobby Bearde » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 04:25:10


Quote:
> 15 rounder

Nobody who let's Marciano stay in the fight for 15 rounds is going to win.
Unless the fight is stopped on cuts or somehow he is KO'd as Foreman did to
Frazier (a past prime, wide open, come right at you Frazier), Marciano will
win over 15 rounds.

There is a misconception that Marciano was behind on points most of the
times when he KO'd the opponent. The opposite is true. In almost all cases
he was ahead on points at the time of the knock out. He came close to losing
to LaStarza in the first fight, mostly because it was only a 10 round fight.
He lost points for a low blow but he also knocked LaStarza down for the
first time in his career. Given 5 more rounds, he takes Roland out.

Marciano's aggressive style and non-stop punching would win the judges over
every time. You don't steal a round in the last 15 seconds, as Ali often
did, against a guy who keeps punching to the bell, and sometimes after the
bell.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Bobby Bearde » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 04:17:26


Quote:


>>15 rounder




>>>>if you had to place money down who would you pick for Marciano vs
>>>>Walcott
>>>>and Marciano vs Ezzard Charles at their prime.

>>> 12 or 15 round fights?

> The longer the fight was, the better Marciano's chances would have
> been. Prime Ezzard Charles was a light heavyweight and would have had
> difficulty keeping Rocky at bay for 15 rounds. Prime Walcott would
> have been the favorite in a 12 round affair, and a 15 rounder would
> have been pick 'em.

> Loki

That's a solid assessment. In a Ring magazine from the 1950s they asked
trainers what kind of fighter would beat Marciano and all agreed that even a
great boxer, a Billy Conn type, would have problems over a long fight
because they wouldn't be able to hurt Marciano enough to keep him off them.
The key all of them saw was endurance and conditioning; Marciano would have
it over anyone they could think of. The longer a fight with Marciano went,
the better his chances. And of course, unless someone cut him bad enough to
get a stoppage, or somehow managed to knock him out, the fight would go into
the late rounds.

In the first fight, Ezzard Charles did great. He fought Marciano toe to toe
and matched him punch for punch. But after the 10th Charles got tired while
Marciano didn't. And Ezzard took a beating those last five rounds. Only
once, in the 15th round, did Ezzard's back touch the ropes, which was
commented on during the fight. It was truely a great showing by Charles. At
any time of his career could he have done better? Nobody at the time thought
so, most saying it was the best fight he ever fought. If he were lighter, he
would have been less able to keep Rocky off him, as you say.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Loki » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 05:11:34

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:25:10 -0600, "Bobby Bearden"

Quote:



>> 15 rounder

>Nobody who let's Marciano stay in the fight for 15 rounds is going to win.
>Unless the fight is stopped on cuts or somehow he is KO'd as Foreman did to
>Frazier (a past prime, wide open, come right at you Frazier), Marciano will
>win over 15 rounds.

>There is a misconception that Marciano was behind on points most of the
>times when he KO'd the opponent. The opposite is true. In almost all cases
>he was ahead on points at the time of the knock out. He came close to losing
>to LaStarza in the first fight, mostly because it was only a 10 round fight.
>He lost points for a low blow but he also knocked LaStarza down for the
>first time in his career. Given 5 more rounds, he takes Roland out.

>Marciano's aggressive style and non-stop punching would win the judges over
>every time. You don't steal a round in the last 15 seconds, as Ali often
>did, against a guy who keeps punching to the bell, and sometimes after the
>bell.

>Bobby Bearden

Wasn't Rocky behind on the cards when he KO 'd Jersey Joe to win the
crown?

Loki

With the holidays approaching, to support
our men and women overseas who may
not be getting packages from home, you can
get some ideas as to how to do so at:
http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm

It is a non profit, volunteer run organization.

I encourage everyone to check it out,
respond from the heart, and pass it
along to anyone you think may want
to remember our overseas military personnel,
especially at this time of year.

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Bobby Bearde » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 06:13:35


Quote:
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 13:25:10 -0600, "Bobby Bearden"



>>> 15 rounder

>>Nobody who let's Marciano stay in the fight for 15 rounds is going to win.
>>Unless the fight is stopped on cuts or somehow he is KO'd as Foreman did
>>to
>>Frazier (a past prime, wide open, come right at you Frazier), Marciano
>>will
>>win over 15 rounds.

>>There is a misconception that Marciano was behind on points most of the
>>times when he KO'd the opponent. The opposite is true. In almost all cases
>>he was ahead on points at the time of the knock out. He came close to
>>losing
>>to LaStarza in the first fight, mostly because it was only a 10 round
>>fight.
>>He lost points for a low blow but he also knocked LaStarza down for the
>>first time in his career. Given 5 more rounds, he takes Roland out.

>>Marciano's aggressive style and non-stop punching would win the judges
>>over
>>every time. You don't steal a round in the last 15 seconds, as Ali often
>>did, against a guy who keeps punching to the bell, and sometimes after the
>>bell.

>>Bobby Bearden

> Wasn't Rocky behind on the cards when he KO 'd Jersey Joe to win the
> crown?

> Loki

Absolutely. The score cards had it 7-4-1, 7-5, and 8-4 for Walcott. And
Walcott had won the last 2 rounds on all three cards. That's what made the
knockout so dramatic. Walcott had the fight won and he was looking great. He
didn't get careless as Conn had against Louis and try to slug with Marciano.
He was punching and moving away, protecting his lead, when he backed against
the ropes. Ring magazine at the time said, "It was a miscalculation of a
trick he often had used to good advantage that cost him the fight. With back
against the ropes, he shifted his body in an effort to baffle his opponent,
and that movement brought him in direct line for the right that put him
away."

Marciano described later that he decided to throw the right at that precise
moment because with the ropes behind him, Walcott could only go to one side
or the other but not move back from the punch. He correctly guessed which
way Walcott would shift, something Ezzard Charles had failed to do. Charles
was knocked out by the clever move and what he called a "sucker punch".
Marciano, being more aggressive, reacted to the move in his usual way; he
threw a punch.

Against LaStarza the first time the final score was 5-4-1 LaStarza, 5-4-1
Marciano, and 5-5 even. The referee had Marciano ahead on points, though,
and he got the razor-thin victory.

But, that was not usual for Marciano fights. He wasn't losing to Charles,
LaStarza, Moore,***el, Louis, or most of his other KO victims at the time
he landed the finishing punch.

Marciano, as has been stated many times, was not a slugger. He was a
swarmer, or what they now like to call a volume puncher. A slugger is often
behind on points when he finally connects for the knockout. But a swarmer,
such as Marciano, Frazier, Harry Greb, is more often ahead because of the
large number of punches thrown and the ultra aggressiveness of their style.
They don't follow an opponent around the ring looking for an opening, they
overwhelm the man's defenses until they create an opening.

Ezzard Charles said, "He has a peculiar way of fighting. You get out of the
way of a right and your jaw catches a left. He feints with his fists and he
feints with his feet. And too often you can't see where the punches are
coming from."

Archie Moore said, "It's like fighting an airplane propeller. The blades
keep whirling past your ear and over your head... He kept changing the speed
and rhythm of his propellers. That threw me off."

And it was this "propeller" style, as Moore called it, that let Rocky build
up points against guys who were better boxers, even guys who were faster and
had better ring movement.

Bobby Bearden

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by The Arrange » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:19:14

Quote:



> > 15 rounder

> Nobody who let's Marciano stay in the fight for 15 rounds is going to win.
> Unless the fight is stopped on cuts or somehow he is KO'd as Foreman did to
> Frazier (a past prime, wide open, come right at you Frazier), Marciano will
> win over 15 rounds.

Bobby, you seem to imply here that the 1st Walcott KO was somehow
inevitable. You can't see a scenario in which Marciano doesn't land the
big one and Walcott wins a split decision? Or either Holmes or Ali
doing the same thing?

The Arranger

 
 
 

Marciano vs Walcott & Charles prime....

Post by Bobby Bearde » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 02:35:50


Quote:




>> > 15 rounder

>> Nobody who let's Marciano stay in the fight for 15 rounds is going to
>> win.
>> Unless the fight is stopped on cuts or somehow he is KO'd as Foreman did
>> to
>> Frazier (a past prime, wide open, come right at you Frazier), Marciano
>> will
>> win over 15 rounds.

> Bobby, you seem to imply here that the 1st Walcott KO was somehow
> inevitable. You can't see a scenario in which Marciano doesn't land the
> big one and Walcott wins a split decision? Or either Holmes or Ali
> doing the same thing?

> The Arranger

There were circumstances in the Walcott fight, most notably Marciano being
blinded by some substance for 4 1/2 rounds. Also, Marciano didn't get to
warm up before the fight. He was asleep in his dressing room (He almost
always slept before a fight) and was expecting to get woke up about 45
minutes before time to go to the ring and warmed up. But for some reason
they rushed ahead the time and he was woke to be told he had to be in the
ring in about 10 minutes. There were also strong rumors that the fight was
fixed and Rocky was told by a police detective on the way to the ring that
"They have the referee. The only way you can win is with a knockout."

I do think Walcott would have won if it went the distance, but because
Marciano was faced with difficulties that aren't supposed to be part of the
game. And Holmes or Ali might do the same thing. I believe it would take
something akin to the blindness, though, to put Marciano off his game to do
it. Why did Ali beat Foreman? Circumstances used by Ali. Fighting at 5 am,
in a country where Foreman had been turned into the villian by Ali, with
suspiciously loose ropes. Even George, who is not one to make excuses, has
said he was made sick and weak by something he was given to drink right
before the fight.

However, given equal footing, such as in the first Ali/Frazier, I see the
aggressive, extremely busy style winning the points.

Look how many times Joe Montana pulled the game out in the last 2 minutes.
There are some athletes of that rare breed that are never beaten until the
game is officially over. And in that I see Marciano favored to land the
knockout punch in the same way Montana found a way to connect with the game
winning pass as the clock ran out.

How many times have we watched fighters lose fights because they don't go
all-out the last couple rounds? De LaHoya comes to mind right off. You see
two guys so tired that if either one had the strength left to land just one
solid shot, with something behind it, the fight is over.
Many times I sit there and think, "Come on, man, just dig deep for 3 minutes
and throw everything you have."
Marciano was that type fighter. He had the conditioning to pull off the last
round type of rally that most fighters can't do.

Bobby Bearden