Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Misc » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 00:49:30


I miscue or fail to pocket the object ball 30% of the time when I
place the object ball two diamonds from the corner pocket and then
perform a straight in long draw shot from four diamonds behind the
object ball (I try to draw back at least two diamonds).

I own a Predator 314 Sneaky Pete with a Moori medium tip and a
Predator P2 314 with a Moori medium tip. Both cues give the same
results. I had a BCA master instructor shape the tips when I attended
pool school. He noticed me having a problem with long draw shots and
helped me by checking my tip and correcting my stance/stroke etc...
This made an improvement, but then he recommended that I try a
non-Predator cue and my accuracy on this shot improved dramatically.

I have performed the same shot test on two non-Predator cues; a
Dufferin house cue and a custom cue and the results were 100%
accuracy. However, I did not get the draw action that the Predator
provided (at least not as consistent but that may be due to the fact
that I wasnt used to playing with the cue).

Has anyone else experienced this with the 314 shaft? Does the shaft
design cause difficulties on long draw shots? Any thoughts would be
helpful.

Thanks for your time,
Jonathan

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Ron Shepar » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 01:36:51


Quote:

> Has anyone else experienced this with the 314 shaft? Does the shaft
> design cause difficulties on long draw shots? Any thoughts would be
> helpful.

No.  I practice power draw shots fairly regularly with a variety of
cues (including some with Predator shafts), and I can get the same
draw with any of them.  The only important factors are that the
stick is solid (i.e. the ferrule is not damaged, the joint is tight,
the tip is attached securely, the tenon is not split beneath the
ferrule, etc.) and the tip holds chalk well enough so that it
doesn't miscue.

I read this fairly often here in RSB.  Some people think that whippy
shafts (e.g. Meucci) are easier to get draw than stiff shafts (e.g.
Southwest), some people think that long pro taper shafts are easier
than conical taper shafts, and some people even think that Predator
shafts get "superspin" which is more sidespin or draw than a normal
shaft (the opposite of your experience).  I don't think any of these
things are really true at face value, but there could well be other
factors that affect a players technique that he might not be aware.

For example, some players use a tight closed bridge, and they have
problems with big stroke shots (such as power draw) with conical
taper shafts.  However, if that player switches to an open bridge,
and spends a few minutes adjusting, then he will be able to get the
same kind of draw with both types of shafts.

Without watching your stroke it is difficult to tell, but I suspect
that you are doing something different with your two shafts that
affects your results.  For example, the Predator shaft has a long
taper, so you might be using a longer bridge with it than with your
other cue.  A longer bridge means less accuracy at the tip-ball
contact spot, which could mean more miscues and/or more misses.  If
the two cues have difference balance points, then you may be
subconsciously moving your rear hand forward or backward, and that
will affect your stroke accuracy.  You might be gripping the ***
tighter with one cue than with the other (a tight grip hurts a power
draw shot).  There are a million little things like this, that
really have nothing to do directly with the shaft design, that might
affect your accuracy on a power draw shot.  Without actually
watching you, it is difficult to tell.  One suggestion might be to
video tape yourself from various angles (back, front, side) and try
to see what you might be doing differently for the different shafts.

Here is the way I practice power draw shots.  This is a progressive
drill.  I place the cue ball about the same distance from the end
cushion on each shot -- somewhere between the first and second
diamond is good because you don't have to elevate the ***too much
to clear the end rail.  Start with the object ball about a diamond
away from the cue ball and fairly straight (not necessarily exactly
straight) into the far diagonal pocket.  Pocket the object ball and
draw the cue ball back to (at least) the end cushion.  When you
succeed, then move the object ball about 1/2 diamond farther from
the cue ball and shoot again.  When you fail, move it 1/2 diamond
closer to the cue ball.  You will eventually get to a distance where
you succeed about half the time, and you will move the ball pretty
much back and forth between a shorter distance where you succeed
most of the time and a longer distance where you fail most of the
time.  That distance is your "score" for that practice session.  You
will have good days and bad days, and you will be able to see the
difference in your score.  Over time, your score will improve.

$.02 -Ron Shepard

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Bill » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 03:55:29

Quote:

> I miscue or fail to pocket the object ball 30% of the time when I
> place the object ball two diamonds from the corner pocket and then
> perform a straight in long draw shot from four diamonds behind the
> object ball (I try to draw back at least two diamonds).

> I own a Predator 314 Sneaky Pete with a Moori medium tip and a
> Predator P2 314 with a Moori medium tip. Both cues give the same
> results. I had a BCA master instructor shape the tips when I attended
> pool school. He noticed me having a problem with long draw shots and
> helped me by checking my tip and correcting my stance/stroke etc...
> This made an improvement, but then he recommended that I try a
> non-Predator cue and my accuracy on this shot improved dramatically.

> I have performed the same shot test on two non-Predator cues; a
> Dufferin house cue and a custom cue and the results were 100%
> accuracy. However, I did not get the draw action that the Predator
> provided (at least not as consistent but that may be due to the fact
> that I wasnt used to playing with the cue).

> Has anyone else experienced this with the 314 shaft?

Yes and more...I missed a lot of everything very consistently, not
just long draw shots.

 Does the shaft

Quote:
> design cause difficulties on long draw shots?

Not according to the die hard Predatorites that would rather give up
their first born instead of their Predator shaft.

 Any thoughts would be

Quote:
> helpful.

I think you should go back and read your own thoughts and test results
in this post and use some common sense.  I can see that you are a die
hard Predatorite and it's breaking your heart to even think about
dumping that precious little thing.  Now, if you really do want my
thoughts, burn that POS and start using a shaft that you can make
shots with.

....................Billy(who hates those motherf*#+ers)

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Patrick Johnso » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 04:12:44

Johnathan:

Quote:
>> Does the shaft [Predator] design cause difficulties on long draw shots?

Billy:

Quote:
> Not according to the die hard Predatorites

Truth is there's no difference in the amount of draw or any kind of spin
you can get with a Predator or any other shaft.  Billy (a die hard
Predator hater) is blinded by his hatred of Predators at least as much
as any "Predatorite" is blinded by his love of them.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Mike Pag » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 04:41:41


[...]

Quote:
> > Any thoughts would be
> > helpful.

> I think you should go back and read your own thoughts and test results
> in this post and use some common sense.  I can see that you are a die
> hard Predatorite and it's breaking your heart to even think about
> dumping that precious little thing.  Now, if you really do want my
> thoughts, burn that POS and start using a shaft that you can make
> shots with.

> ....................Billy(who hates those motherf*#+ers)

Congratulations Billy!  

You have finally succeeded in proving somebody wrong.

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Bill » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 07:53:58

Quote:




> [...]

> > > Any thoughts would be
> > > helpful.

> > I think you should go back and read your own thoughts and test results
> > in this post and use some common sense.  I can see that you are a die
> > hard Predatorite and it's breaking your heart to even think about
> > dumping that precious little thing.  Now, if you really do want my
> > thoughts, burn that POS and start using a shaft that you can make
> > shots with.

> > ....................Billy(who hates those motherf*#+ers)

> Congratulations Billy!  

> You have finally succeeded in proving somebody wrong.

Do you have an opinion about the thread that you wish to expound on,
or are you on a personal warpath, Mr.Etiquette?

................Billy (really thinks Mike is a wolf in *** clothing)

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Bill » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 08:04:51

Quote:

> Johnathan:
> >> Does the shaft [Predator] design cause difficulties on long draw shots?

> Billy:
> > Not according to the die hard Predatorites

> Truth is there's no difference in the amount of draw or any kind of spin
> you can get with a Predator or any other shaft.  Billy (a die hard
> Predator hater) is blinded by his hatred of Predators at least as much
> as any "Predatorite" is blinded by his love of them.

There's a big difference though, I played with a Predator for an
entire year and was fully committed to it before finally giving up.
You've never played with anything else except a Predator for a long
period since you started playing
pool, other than this small tipped shaft which is similar in many
ways.  Play with a regular high quality production shaft or a normal
custom shaft for a year and then offer an opinion.

...................Billy

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Patrick Johnso » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:14:22

Quote:

> You've never played with anything else except a Predator for a long
> period since you started playing pool

I played with a Meucci for a year, a Schon for three years and the
custom shaft I've had for the past 15 months, which is only like a
Predator in that it's hollow up front -- it isn't laminated, doesn't
have a soft ferrule (or much of one at all) and is stiffer with a
conical taper.  I also play occasionally with other cues (including
house cues) just to compare, and see no difference except in hit.

Even when I played with a Predator I consistently disagreed with those
who made special performance claims for them (except low squirt, which
is proven) -- unlike you, who seem to take every opportunity to say they
underperform.  It's you with the prejudice, Billy.

(Not to mention your obsession with squirt...)
Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Patrick Johnso » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:16:27

Quote:
>>>Any thoughts would be helpful.

Billy:

Quote:
>>[snippedy do dah]
> Congratulations Billy!
> You have finally succeeded in proving somebody wrong.

LOL.

pj
chgo

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by aaron suar » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:35:27

Quote:





> > [...]

> > > > Any thoughts would be
> > > > helpful.

> > > I think you should go back and read your own thoughts and test results
> > > in this post and use some common sense.  I can see that you are a die
> > > hard Predatorite and it's breaking your heart to even think about
> > > dumping that precious little thing.  Now, if you really do want my
> > > thoughts, burn that POS and start using a shaft that you can make
> > > shots with.

> > > ....................Billy(who hates those motherf*#+ers)

> > Congratulations Billy!  

> > You have finally succeeded in proving somebody wrong.

> Do you have an opinion about the thread that you wish to expound on,
> or are you on a personal warpath, Mr.Etiquette?

> ................Billy (really thinks Mike is a wolf in *** clothing)

i own a predator and a schon and have noticed more draw with the
predator wich is directly related to the cues high shaft deflection of
these sticks i can definately make longer draw shots with my schon
more accurately that same deflection accentuates the shaft deflection
on draw shots wich causes misses you might also try using a shorter
bridge for draw shots. i use a 10 inch bridge becauuse that is were my
pivot point is on medium to soft shots using up to a tip of english
since i use bhe. but when i need an accurate draw shot i use a 6inch
bridge it gives me more accuracy and more draw, i can shoot a shot
*** in the pocket and be at the other end of the table and draw it
back to the rail with the 6inch bridge practically every time but with
my ten inch bridge id be lucky to do it 1 out of 10
 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Bob Hartma » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:58:27

Thanks for the detailed explanation and drill.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is tip diameter.
Could part of the miss-cue problem be due to a greater contact point
offset with a Predator's typically smaller diameter tip compared to
most other shafts?

Bob Hartman

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:36:51 -0600, Ron Shepard

Quote:



>> Has anyone else experienced this with the 314 shaft? Does the shaft
>> design cause difficulties on long draw shots? Any thoughts would be
>> helpful.

>No.  I practice power draw shots fairly regularly with a variety of
>cues (including some with Predator shafts), and I can get the same
>draw with any of them.  The only important factors are that the
>stick is solid (i.e. the ferrule is not damaged, the joint is tight,
>the tip is attached securely, the tenon is not split beneath the
>ferrule, etc.) and the tip holds chalk well enough so that it
>doesn't miscue.

>I read this fairly often here in RSB.  Some people think that whippy
>shafts (e.g. Meucci) are easier to get draw than stiff shafts (e.g.
>Southwest), some people think that long pro taper shafts are easier
>than conical taper shafts, and some people even think that Predator
>shafts get "superspin" which is more sidespin or draw than a normal
>shaft (the opposite of your experience).  I don't think any of these
>things are really true at face value, but there could well be other
>factors that affect a players technique that he might not be aware.

>For example, some players use a tight closed bridge, and they have
>problems with big stroke shots (such as power draw) with conical
>taper shafts.  However, if that player switches to an open bridge,
>and spends a few minutes adjusting, then he will be able to get the
>same kind of draw with both types of shafts.

>Without watching your stroke it is difficult to tell, but I suspect
>that you are doing something different with your two shafts that
>affects your results.  For example, the Predator shaft has a long
>taper, so you might be using a longer bridge with it than with your
>other cue.  A longer bridge means less accuracy at the tip-ball
>contact spot, which could mean more miscues and/or more misses.  If
>the two cues have difference balance points, then you may be
>subconsciously moving your rear hand forward or backward, and that
>will affect your stroke accuracy.  You might be gripping the ***
>tighter with one cue than with the other (a tight grip hurts a power
>draw shot).  There are a million little things like this, that
>really have nothing to do directly with the shaft design, that might
>affect your accuracy on a power draw shot.  Without actually
>watching you, it is difficult to tell.  One suggestion might be to
>video tape yourself from various angles (back, front, side) and try
>to see what you might be doing differently for the different shafts.

>Here is the way I practice power draw shots.  This is a progressive
>drill.  I place the cue ball about the same distance from the end
>cushion on each shot -- somewhere between the first and second
>diamond is good because you don't have to elevate the ***too much
>to clear the end rail.  Start with the object ball about a diamond
>away from the cue ball and fairly straight (not necessarily exactly
>straight) into the far diagonal pocket.  Pocket the object ball and
>draw the cue ball back to (at least) the end cushion.  When you
>succeed, then move the object ball about 1/2 diamond farther from
>the cue ball and shoot again.  When you fail, move it 1/2 diamond
>closer to the cue ball.  You will eventually get to a distance where
>you succeed about half the time, and you will move the ball pretty
>much back and forth between a shorter distance where you succeed
>most of the time and a longer distance where you fail most of the
>time.  That distance is your "score" for that practice session.  You
>will have good days and bad days, and you will be able to see the
>difference in your score.  Over time, your score will improve.

>$.02 -Ron Shepard

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Bill » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 22:59:10

Quote:


> > You've never played with anything else except a Predator for a long
> > period since you started playing pool

  Pat starts his typical crap:

Quote:
> I also play occasionally with other cues (including
> house cues) just to compare, and see no difference except in hit.

Then why spend over $200 bucks on a shaft that brings no additional
benefit other than that magic word that you and your tag team partner
always bring up.
Most everyone, even guys that continue to play a Predator agree that
the hit is lousy and they don't like the feel compared to other
shafts.  That's well documented throughout all these threads.

Quote:
> Even when I played with a Predator I consistently disagreed with those
> who made special performance claims for them (except low squirt,  which
> is proven) -- unlike you, who seem to take every opportunity to say they
> underperform.

I'm not the only one that has had difficulties and have abandoned them
for good.
Again, that's well documented here on this old and very boring
subject.
So what you're saying is Predator has developed the perfect shaft, low
squirt(your words, not mine) and all of the other positive
characteristics of a well made shaft.  Bullshit...
in trying to achieve low squirt (your words again) that's where the
trade off has occurred, in other performance areas. There's always a
trade off somewhere.

Quote:
> (Not to mention your obsession with squirt...)

Nice try squirtmeister, I never mentioned it at all in my original
post and rarely do, it's only in response to you and the master
squirtmeister himself, although in his post he took extra cautionary
measures not to say it once. I'm proud of old Ronnie boy, even if he
is the V.P. of Public Relations for Predator.

........................Billy (this argument is soooo old)

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Jack Stei » Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:09:46

Quote:

> Thanks for the detailed explanation and drill.

> One aspect that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is tip diameter.
> Could part of the miss-cue problem be due to a greater contact point
> offset with a Predator's typically smaller diameter tip compared to
> most other shafts?

I think the reason a lot of folks think they get more english, draw and
other fine things with a predator, or any cue, is the smaller tip
diameter.  They aim the same spot/way they do with a fatter tip, and
suddenly they get a ton of draw.  I think all that is happening is they
aim where they normally do, but hit lower/more to the side, than they
are used to with a fatter tip.
--
Jack
http://jbstein.com
 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Patrick Johnso » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:24:05

Quote:

> ... why spend over $200 bucks on a shaft

... and ...

Quote:
> Most everyone, even guys that continue to play a Predator agree that
> the hit is lousy and they don't like the feel compared to other
> shafts.

... and ...

Quote:
> ... what you're saying is Predator has developed the perfect shaft

Why all the exaggeration, Billy?  They don't cost over $200, "most
everyone" doesn't agree the hit is lousy, and nobody (particularly me)
has said Predator is perfect.  If you have to make things up to
criticize Predator, that just shows your blind obsession with them.
That's what's getting old around here.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

Long Draw Shot Difficulties with Predator 314

Post by Smorgass Bor » Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:33:18

Billy said:
????Pat starts his typical crap:

And, Billy says:
Bullshit... in trying to achieve low squirt (your words again) that's
where the trade off has occurred

Then Billy adds:
Nice try squirtmeister, I never mentioned it at all in my original post
and rarely do, it's only in response to you and the master squirtmeister
himself, although in his post he took extra cautionary measures not to
say it once. I'm proud of old Ronnie boy, even if he is the V.P. of
Public Relations for Predator.
.......................Billy

 (*<~  I can't stand it when you guys argue and call each other names on
this newsgroup.

   I'm ready to go Kill Myself..... imo    

                  Doug
 ~>*(((><  Big fish eat Little fish  ><)))*<~