Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by Mr Ps McWilliams » Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:00:00


I thought I read somewhere on Hermund Ardalen's page that he had received
the permission of the WBPSA to publish the "official", i.e. correct, rules
of snooker, though maybe Jari knows better!

However, we agree that it would be useful for the rules of (English)
billiards to be housed somewhere on the Net.

Cannons: the limit is 75 without a hazard (so the balls can't be wedged in
the corner of the pocket any more). The chances of doing that have long
since disappeared.

Hazards: the limit is 15 without a cannon.

(A hazard is a pot or in-off).

Snooker "free-ball": For now, I cannot agree with Jari that the following
position is NOT a free ball.

               G_______________._____________BY

though I will have a look later and report back!

Then rule states that both edges of the ball ON must be capable of being
struck by the cue ball. To me that means depth of half a ball's diameter
on either side and in this case for a free ball to be avoided the cue ball
would, at worst, need to be in a straight line with the yellow and right
behind it. If the cue ball could go slightly to the right of the yellow it
would not be a free ball.

Due to the curvature of the "D" I'm not sure what is possible. However,
we'll see.

Patrick

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by SnookerU » Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:00:00

#I thought I read somewhere on Hermund Ardalen's page that he had received
#the permission of the WBPSA to publish the "official", i.e. correct,
rules
#of snooker, though maybe Jari knows better!

Not to my knowledge.  The WPBSA has the (c) on the "official" rules, and I
have it on
good authority that nobody has permission to reproduce them in entirety.
I have an outline
on the United States Snooker Assoc's. page, but that is it.   Matter of
fact, with Jim McKensies
permission I copied their fine outline from E.J. Riley's page.... what can
I say? For $5.00 you can have the book from us, or join the USSA for $25
and we'll include the book and a quarterly newsletter! and give you $25
off if you enter the National Championships! What more can you ask for?  

#However, we agree that it would be useful for the rules of (English)
#billiards to be housed somewhere on the Net.

I don't see why you guys can't send in the small amount and buy the rule
books, it seems to me, yoiu spend a heck of a lot on the equipement...why
not spend a few dollars to support the organizaztions that make the rules,
organize events etc?.... I don't understand.

#Cannons: the limit is 75 without a hazard (so the balls can't be wedged
in
#the corner of the pocket any more). The chances of doing that have long
#since disappeared.

#Hazards: the limit is 15 without a cannon.

#(A hazard is a pot or in-off).

#Snooker "free-ball": For now, I cannot agree with Jari that the following
#position is NOT a free ball.

#               G_______________._____________BY

I would call a free ball depending on the offending players game play
throughout the match.
If there was an intentional foul made here, I may be tempted to call a
free ball.   The offending player may be very far ahead in points and just
not want the position.... after that successful pot.
This is in my mind very poor sportsmanship,and I'm going to penalize that
player.

This is in my oppinion  a  judgement call of the referree, and I would
rather err on the side of
the player being put in a position like this rather than the offender.

Personally I can't see why the player "on"... can't play a good safe... or
even pot the yellow in the corner pocket down table.   Two good shots, the
former being the best IMHO.

#Then rule states that both edges of the ball ON must be capable of being
#struck by the cue ball. To me that means depth of half a ball's diameter

Regards,
Mark Kulaga
########################################
Vice President
The United States Snooker Association
http://www.assemblylineproducts.com/ussa.html
Naperville, IL
########################################

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by ranth.. » Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> I don't see why you guys can't send in the small amount and buy the rule
> books, it seems to me, yoiu spend a heck of a lot on the equipement...why
> not spend a few dollars to support the organizaztions that make the rules,
> organize events etc?.... I don't understand.

Hey, Mark . . . I have a fantastic game you *must* play.  It's called
Tijuana (tho' in fact I learned it from some hard core pool players in
Arkansas).  It combines all the e***ment of 9-ball, all the strategy
of 14.1, and all the complexity of snooker.  Tho' it isn't played widely
in this country, I'm told that it is quite popular (under different
names) in South and Latin America.

Wanna learn it?  Send me $5.

The point is that most people are going to think, "Well, sounds
interesting, but it's not worth $5 just to find out the rules."  But if
someone gives them the rules, it's possible that they might actually
enjoy the game and continue to play.  I know that if someone had told me
to buy the rules book, I never would have bothered with the game.  But
someone told me the rules, and now I play every couple of weeks and
enjoy it enough to have a 10mm shaft made up just for this purpose.

Rob A.

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by SnookerU » Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:00:00

##Hey, Mark . . . I have a fantastic game you *must* play.  It's called
##Tijuana (tho' in fact I learned it from some hard core pool players in
##Arkansas).  It combines all the e***ment of 9-ball, all the strategy
##of 14.1, and all the complexity of snooker.  Tho' it isn't played widely
##in this country, I'm told that it is quite popular (under different
##names) in South and Latin America.
##
##Wanna learn it?  Send me $5.
##
##The point is that most people are going to think, "Well, sounds
##interesting, but it's not worth $5 just to find out the rules."  But if
##someone gives them the rules, it's possible that they might actually
##enjoy the game and continue to play.  I know that if someone had told me
##to buy the rules book, I never would have bothered with the game.  But
##someone told me the rules, and now I play every couple of weeks and
##enjoy it enough to have a 10mm shaft made up just for this purpose.
##
##Rob A.

Rob,

First let me be the one to congratulate you on your astute observations
and 100% agreement with me... and please accept my following advice to
you.

Write a book of rules for your game,get it printed up say.... 5,000 copies
first.
Then, I'll give you $5.00 for your book.... but then again, will you send
me a quarterly newsletter about your game?, and give me $25 off the entry
fee to your national championship?

You are going to have a newsletter right?
And a national championship.... oh.. of course you'll  have to form an
organization dedicated to that sport.... get recognized by the WPBSA, and
the rest of the world governing bodies in pool,
oh bye the way, you aren't going to copy any existing rules without
permission are you?
Of course, you'll have to have a national championship, and send the top
two players to play in the world championships for that game all expenses
paid right?
How many countries play that game by the way?
Just the USA you say, Mexico, and South America?
Then you have a lot of work ahead of you... re-inventing the wheel is very
hard to do, and it costs money...

Make sure nobody already has the copyright on the rules first ok? If not,
then hey!
GOOD LUCK TO YOU!

I'll be your first customer... what are the specs for the table it is
played on?
Can you play on any pool table?....
I support all cue sports, and their associations.
When I want the rules to their games, I pay for them like everyone else.
If I were to play in their sanctioned tournements, I support them in doing
so.

So we are in agreement I see.
See you at the International BCA Trade show maybe...where you can watch me
pay my $25
to the BCA in person for my membership.   Do I get a rule book with that?

:O)
Take care now-

Regards,
Mark Kulaga
########################################
Vice President
The United States Snooker Association
http://SportToday.org/
Naperville, IL
########################################

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by ranth.. » Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

> Rob,

> First let me be the one to congratulate you on your astute observations
> and 100% agreement with me... and please accept my following advice to
> you.

> Write a book of rules for your game,get it printed up say.... 5,000 copies
> first.
> Then, I'll give you $5.00 for your book.... but then again, will you send
> me a quarterly newsletter about your game?, and give me $25 off the entry
> fee to your national championship?

> You are going to have a newsletter right?
> And a national championship.... oh.. of course you'll  have to form an
> organization dedicated to that sport.... get recognized by the WPBSA, and
> the rest of the world governing bodies in pool,
> oh bye the way, you aren't going to copy any existing rules without
> permission are you?
> Of course, you'll have to have a national championship, and send the top
> two players to play in the world championships for that game all expenses
> paid right?
> How many countries play that game by the way?
> Just the USA you say, Mexico, and South America?
> Then you have a lot of work ahead of you... re-inventing the wheel is very
> hard to do, and it costs money...

> Make sure nobody already has the copyright on the rules first ok? If not,
> then hey!
> GOOD LUCK TO YOU!

> I'll be your first customer... what are the specs for the table it is
> played on?
> Can you play on any pool table?....
> I support all cue sports, and their associations.
> When I want the rules to their games, I pay for them like everyone else.
> If I were to play in their sanctioned tournements, I support them in doing
> so.

> So we are in agreement I see.
> See you at the International BCA Trade show maybe...where you can watch me
> pay my $25
> to the BCA in person for my membership.   Do I get a rule book with that?

All of that description of how much work you did, Mark, and yet you
completely and totally missed the point of my argument!

*Give* the rules away to generate interest.  Then when more players are
interested, you can charge them for memberships and newsletters.  

I'm not advocating giving away any of your nicely bound 5,000 copies,
but what about posting the basic rules and scoring method?  What about
just telling people exactly how the game is played?  

Hey, I don't care how many other countries snooker is played in, it is
rarely played in the U.S.  And I don't think refusing to give people
rules unless they buy your "official" copy is going to up the number of
snooker fans around here anytime soon.

Rob A.

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by Ron Shepa » Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:00:00


[...]

Quote:
>I don't see why you guys can't send in the small amount and buy the rule
>books, it seems to me, yoiu spend a heck of a lot on the equipement...why
>not spend a few dollars to support the organizaztions that make the rules,
>organize events etc?.... I don't understand.

This is the same type of argument that comes up regarding ANSI programming
language standards (they are written in electronic form, but only
published in paper form).  If rules are available in electronic form then
they can be distributed and revised more easily.  The BCA has done this
for some of their rules, but not all of them.  If some discussion
regarding the rules comes up, say here in r.s.b., then everyone can
cut-and-paste the appropriate exerpts.  No need to do tedious retyping or
risk introducing new typo errors.

I like the way the BCA does it, although I wish they would put more of
their rules online.  In their rulebook, they also include additional
information on various records, instructional play, some photographs of
the current champions and so on.  So for the $5, you get more than just
the rules.

[...]

Quote:

>#Snooker "free-ball": For now, I cannot agree with Jari that the following
>#position is NOT a free ball.

>#               G_______________._____________BY

>I would call a free ball depending on the offending players game play
>throughout the match.
>If there was an intentional foul made here, I may be tempted to call a
>free ball.   The offending player may be very far ahead in points and just
>not want the position.... after that successful pot.

Why is it that snooker players are willing to have these kind of fouls
depend on the perceived intentions of the player?  In pool, most players
believe that the less subjectivity that is required the better -- this
leads to fewer arguments, less bad feelings, and so on.  This is not the
only snooker rule that is like this, is it; I think that there are several
that require the referee to make a judgement about the shooter's
intentions.  What is a foul, or a free ball, in one situation would not be
one in another situation or perhaps even with a different referee making
the call.

I think that this is an interesting situation, but from a pool player's
point of view, the definition of a "snooker" needs to be refined so that
either the cue ball position is included in the definition or it isn't
(i.e. some "infinite cue ball distance" limit is used).  I don't know
which would be best.  But it makes for a strange discussion in r.s.b. when
one person says that the snooker depends on where the cue ball is placed,
another says that it doesn't depend on the cue ball position, and yet
another says that it depends on the previous shooter's intentions.  And as
Mark pointed out, whether there is a free ball or not, the incoming player
has a reasonable shot at the yellow in the corner, or a lock sure snooker
if that is what he decides to play, so even if the preceeding foul was
intentional it still gives the incoming player a great advantage.

$.02 -Ron Shepard

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by cvdmaa » Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:00:00

[some English billiards snipped..]

Quote:

> #Snooker "free-ball": For now, I cannot agree with Jari that the following
> #position is NOT a free ball.

> #               G_______________._____________BY

This is most certainly a free ball !

Quote:
> I would call a free ball depending on the offending players game play
> throughout the match.
> If there was an intentional foul made here, I may be tempted to call a
> free ball.   The offending player may be very far ahead in points and just
> not want the position.... after that successful pot.
> This is in my mind very poor sportsmanship,and I'm going to penalize that
> player.

> This is in my oppinion  a  judgement call of the referree, and I would
> rather err on the side of
> the player being put in a position like this rather than the offender.

IMHO there is no room for judgement calls with relation to free balls!
See below!

Quote:
> #Then rule states that both edges of the ball ON must be capable of being
> #struck by the cue ball. To me that means depth of half a ball's diameter

                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
Nope, a free ball is rewarded when it is NOT possible to hit the ball on
both sides with the thinnest possible contact, that means there should
be a FULL ball depth at either side of the ball on! This explains why
judgement calls are out of the question, whether or not a ball is a free
ball can be measured. The ref. usually has some sort of gadget to do
just that. (Same gizmo that (s)he uses to determine whether a ball will
go on its spot)

There is only on rule in snooker where judgement comes into play: 'the
miss rule'
This rule is only used for very good players.

Cheers.
CvdM
ooooo
 ooo
  o

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by Jari Kokk » Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:00:00



Quote:
> I thought I read somewhere on Hermund Ardalen's page that he had
> received the permission of the WBPSA to publish the "official", i.e.
> correct, rules of snooker, though maybe Jari knows better!

As far as I know, no one has gotten the right to publish the
IBSF/WPBSA rules on the 'Net. The BCA version of the snooker rules
were online until recently, but that was due to a misunderstanding,
and unfortunately I had to remove them from SBO's site.

I will approach the IBSF/WPBSA formally, explaining how good PR it is
for a sport to make the correct rules known. Tha BCA seems to agree,
they have pool rules online.

However, until the snooker rules are back on-line, you'll just have to
use the WWW Snooker Clinic for help :-)

Quote:
> Snooker "free-ball": For now, I cannot agree with Jari that the following
> position is NOT a free ball.

>                G_______________._____________BY

                                                Q

Trust me, it isn't.

Quote:
> Then rule states that both edges of the ball ON must be capable of being
> struck by the cue ball. To me that means depth of half a ball's diameter
> on either side

Yes, either side of the object ball, yes. But if you place the cue
ball as close to the yellow as possible, without touching, you can
play _either side_ of the yellow as thin as possible without the brown
being in the way.

I wish presenting a drawing wouldn't be so *** the Usenet, but
check out http://SportToday.org/~jkokko/freeball.gif

Jari Kokko

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by SnookerU » Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:00:00

####[some English billiards snipped..]
####>
####> #Snooker "free-ball": For now, I cannot agree with Jari that the
following
####> #position is NOT a free ball.
#####>
#####> #               G_______________._____________BY
#####>
#####This is most certainly a free ball !
#####
#####> I would call a free ball depending on the offending players game
play
####> throughout the match.
####> If there was an intentional foul made here, I may be tempted to call
a
####> free ball.   The offending player may be very far ahead in points
and just
####> not want the position.... after that successful pot.
####> This is in my mind very poor sportsmanship,and I'm going to penalize
that
####> player.
####>
####> This is in my oppinion  a  judgement call of the referree, and I
would
####> rather err on the side of
####> the player being put in a position like this rather than the
offender.

####IMHO there is no room for judgement calls with relation to free balls!
####See below!

####> #Then rule states that both edges of the ball ON must be capable of
being
####> #struck by the cue ball. To me that means depth of half a ball's
diameter
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^
####Nope, a free ball is rewarded when it is NOT possible to hit the ball
on
####both sides with the thinnest possible contact, that means there should
####be a FULL ball depth at either side of the ball on! This explains why
####judgement calls are out of the question, whether or not a ball is a
free
####ball can be measured. The ref. usually has some sort of gadget to do
####just that. (Same gizmo that (s)he uses to determine whether a ball
will
####go on its spot)

####There is only on rule in snooker where judgement comes into play: 'the
####miss rule'
####This rule is only used for very good players.

####Cheers.
####CvdM
####ooooo
##### ooo
#####  o

I set the balls up on my table.
http://www.assemblylineproducts.com/freeball.html
you make the call.....I placed two reds in the appropriate contact points
on the yellow....
I  see a free ball here unless a masse shot is attempted.

Either way the call is made.... the incoming player has a good shot on the
yellow to make it
in the pocket down table or to safety.    Giving the option of "Freeball"
just makes it sweet.

I'd call free ball here.
(Forget what I said about the offending players attitude, I must have been
thinking foul and a miss).... which was called on me in the 1992 World
Amateurs........ ouch did that one hurt.
What hurt even worse? My opponent was called in the same game... and I
struck a color as
my red...then shot a red again!!!!!!  afterwards, where I should  have
nominated a color.   Two fantastic pots, one incredible slip of
concentration.  Hell, I'm talking as if I'm almost a pro.... I couldn't
buy a break back then. (lol).       At one point, and I know I'm off
topic, but I had a section by me during one of my matches.... they shouted
"ONE", after each of my reds.....  because I couldn't pot a color in that
game...how embarassing.     My opponent from the Isle of Man, yes, "The
Isle of Man".... bought be a beer afterwards...errr I mean Diet Coke.

Wow, did I get off topic.

"FREE BALL".

Regards,
Mark Kulaga
########################################
Vice President
The United States Snooker Association
http://www.assemblylineproducts.com/ussa.html
Naperville, IL
########################################

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by old.. » Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>>I don't see why you guys can't send in the small amount and buy the rule
>>books, it seems to me, yoiu spend a heck of a lot on the equipement...why
>>not spend a few dollars to support the organizaztions that make the rules,
>>organize events etc?.... I don't understand.

Here here!!!!!

But don't take them with you when you play you will look very sad indeed.

Steve.

Stephen O'Neill

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by SnookerU » Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:00:00


##>>I don't see why you guys can't send in the small amount and buy the
rule
##>>books, it seems to me, yoiu spend a heck of a lot on the
equipement...why
##>>not spend a few dollars to support the organizaztions that make the
rules,
##>>organize events etc?.... I don't understand.

##Here here!!!!!

##But don't take them with you when you play you will look very sad
indeed.

##Steve.

##Stephen O'Neill

Quote:
>>>>>>>>> Steve,  I wrote that... lol.. not Ron Shepard...


Regards,
Mark Kulaga
########################################
Vice President
The United States Snooker Association
http://www.assemblylineproducts.com/ussa.html
Naperville, IL
########################################
 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by Pat Greenwal » Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:00:00

Quote:
> The point is that most people are going to think, "Well, sounds
> interesting, but it's not worth $5 just to find out the rules."  But if
> someone gives them the rules, it's possible that they might actually
> enjoy the game and continue to play.  I know that if someone had told me
> to buy the rules book, I never would have bothered with the game.  But
> someone told me the rules, and now I play every couple of weeks and
> enjoy it enough to have a 10mm shaft made up just for this purpose.

> Rob A.

        I know from experience that you don't need a rule book to play
;-) In fact, I'd say it doesn't help my game at all. That goes for any
sport of game. I was more than happy to buy my first BCA rule book, and
was just as happy to buy my 3rd BCA Rule book. I have always enjoyed the
game even though it was a few years between when I met someone else who
knew the real rules. I guess my point is you will play by the rules of
those you play with. That is all that matters to have a good time. If
you really enjoy the game, you'll want to buy the rule book.

Happy Cueing,

Pat Greenwald

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by Jari Kokk » Sun, 02 Mar 1997 04:00:00


Quote:



> >I would call a free ball depending on the offending players game play
> >throughout the match.
> >If there was an intentional foul made here, I may be tempted to call a
> >free ball.   The offending player may be very far ahead in points and just
> >not want the position.... after that successful pot.

> Why is it that snooker players are willing to have these kind of fouls
> depend on the perceived intentions of the player?

Well, there is no subjectivity about that call, Ron. What Mark says is
incorrect. Calling a free ball is automatic if after a foul the
opponent is snookered.

Quote:
> This is not the only snooker rule that is like this, is it; I think
> that there are several that require the referee to make a judgement
> about the shooter's intentions.

No, I think there's just the one: the MISS rule. The MISS rule is the
best rule to achieve what is intended: to make the striker try to hit
a ball on.

Quote:
>  What is a foul, or a free ball, in one situation would not be one
> in another situation or perhaps even with a different referee making
> the call.

Well, a referee is a human in every game.

Quote:
> I think that this is an interesting situation, but from a pool player's
> point of view, the definition of a "snooker" needs to be refined so that
> either the cue ball position is included in the definition or it
> isn't

It is included. It's either where it lies, or if in-hand, any position
within the 'D'.

The only new thing in this discussion is the 'A-HA' feeling you get
when you discover that by placing the cue ball as close to the yellow
as possible it's not a free ball. Which is why I think Jonas's
original article was so  brilliant: I fell in the trap of calling a
free ball, but as Jonas explained clearly, it isn't.

I don't know what is so hard to understand here, though:

1. You're snookered if any part of every ball on is obstructed by a
ball not on.

2. If in-hand, you're only snookered if you're snookered everywhere in
the "D"

3. If you're snookered after a foul, it's a free ball

4. when in-hand, you can place the cue ball anywhere in the "D",
except touching another ball

Jari Kokko

 
 
 

Rules of Billiards & Snooker + Free Ball?

Post by Ron Shepa » Sun, 02 Mar 1997 04:00:00

[...]

Quote:
> The only new thing in this discussion is the 'A-HA' feeling you get
> when you discover that by placing the cue ball as close to the yellow
> as possible it's not a free ball. Which is why I think Jonas's
> original article was so  brilliant: I fell in the trap of calling a
> free ball, but as Jonas explained clearly, it isn't. [...]

I agree with this completely.  The situation was clearly explained, and
your previous posts, among others, described how the rules applied to this
situation so that there was no free ball.  But then several other snooker
players, including Mark who should know the rules as well as anyone,
disagreed with this analysis of the situation.  It was the general
disagreement about how the rules should be applied, and particularly the
idea that the shooter's intentions should play a determining factor, that
I was talking about, not so much this particular situation.  It was not
that there was disagreement before the "A-Ha", from regular snooker
players (it is sort of a tricky situation, after all), it was that there
was still disagreement after the "A-Ha".

As far as this particular situation goes, it seems that if the ball on is
in the D (or even just outside of it), and you have ball in hand and can
hit the ball on from some place within the D, then there can be no snooker
(and therefore no free ball) because of this "aribitrarily close to the
ball on" argument.  The business about full ball widths  clearances and so
on seem to be irrelavant to this situation, a single possible point of
contact is enough to eliminate the snooker situation.  Suppose the yellow
was sitting in the middle of the D somewhere and surrounded by the other 5
colors in such a way that the cue ball could touch the yellow at only a
single very small region (say the two balls adjacent to this region are
touching the yellow and separated by 61 degrees; this is the
hexagonal-closest-packed situation with a perimeter ball removed and with
a very slight distortion).  Then by anyone's judgement, the yellow is
"surrounded" by the other balls, yet there is still that one angle that
the cue ball could be placed so that the yellow could be hit, and if the
cue ball were placed closely enough, it would not be a snooker and
therefore there would be no free ball.

$.02 -Ron Shepard