3foul in 8ball - why not?

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Duane Mor » Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:00:00


Somebody asked me a question tonight that I didn't have an answer for.
We realize that there's a 3foul rule in 9 ball and not 8 ball.  Why?
I don't know exactly how a rule becomes a law (although thank you,
schoolhouse rock, I do know how a bill becomes a law :)), and I'm
curious why whatever cosmic power made this 9ball rule didn't do the
same thing to 8ball (or for that matter, any other game).

Duane

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3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Ron Shepa » Thu, 16 Jan 1997 04:00:00


Quote:

>Somebody asked me a question tonight that I didn't have an answer for.
>We realize that there's a 3foul rule in 9 ball and not 8 ball.  Why?
>I don't know exactly how a rule becomes a law (although thank you,
>schoolhouse rock, I do know how a bill becomes a law :)), and I'm
>curious why whatever cosmic power made this 9ball rule didn't do the
>same thing to 8ball (or for that matter, any other game).

One answer is that since the players are shooting at different balls in
8-ball, it would be too easy for a player with little skill to play a
snooker and then repeat it with ball in hand 2 times for the win.  In
9-ball, both players are shooting at the same ball(s), so the tactics are
different.  Other pool games, such as 14.1 and one-pocket, have 3-foul
rules also (note that in these games, the players are shooting at the same
set of balls too.)  8-ball is easy enough already, so there is no need to
make it "easier" for a skilless player to win.

I think it is popular usage that ultimately determines the rules to pool
games.  9-ball didn't always have ball-in-hand and 3-foul rules.  Many
players liked the game more the old way.  Not me!  I think BIH and 3F
makes 9-ball much more interesting.  Someone posted recently an example of
how an accomplished 3C player used his skill to get out of trouble when
playing a tough opponent.  With the old rules, such skill and knowledge
would never have had the opportunity to be used.

$.02 -Ron Shepard

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by John Walk » Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:



>>Somebody asked me a question tonight that I didn't have an answer for.
>>We realize that there's a 3foul rule in 9 ball and not 8 ball.  Why?
>>I don't know exactly how a rule becomes a law (although thank you,
>>schoolhouse rock, I do know how a bill becomes a law :)), and I'm
>>curious why whatever cosmic power made this 9ball rule didn't do the
>>same thing to 8ball (or for that matter, any other game).

Suppose my opponent fouls.  I now have ball-in-hand.  It would be easy
to snooker him again.  All I would have to do is find two of my balls
lying close together, and leave the cue ball frozen against one of my
balls.  Now he is on two fouls.  I guess the rulesmakers
decided that too many games would be decided this way.

This can also be done in nine-ball, but I doubt it is as easy.  I refuse
to play nine-ball, so I don't know.

John

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by JOE LE P » Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:00:00

The local 8-ball leauge and tournament has the need for a three foul rule.
What causes the need is that some gutless players foul intentionally when
the opponents ball is hopelessly tied up. A personal instance occured when
I was to shoot the 8 ball but couldnt hit it without loosing the game.
With the three foul rule, the other player would be forced to at least
try. I believe in using the rules to your advantage but I hate to waste
three innings like this.

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Bob Jewe » Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:00:00


: The local 8-ball leauge and tournament has the need for a three foul rule.
: What causes the need is that some gutless players foul intentionally when
: the opponents ball is hopelessly tied up. A personal instance occured when
: I was to shoot the 8 ball but couldnt hit it without loosing the game.

I don't understand the situation, Joe.  Presumably you fouled by not
hitting the eight, and then your opponent got ball in hand.  Don't you
lose from that position with three fouls in effect?  Without three
fouls (as under the BCA 8-ball rules) there is a stalemate possibility,
but then you just start another game.

Bob Jewett

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Ron Shepa » Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:00:00

[...]

Quote:
>I find it easier to safety in 9-ball as there is only one ball to hide
>the cue ball from. In 8-ball there could be as many as 7.

In 9-ball you have to hit a specific ball first.  In 8-ball, you have a
choice of up to 7 balls to hit in order to get a snooker, and it is even
easier when the opponent is down to his last balls.  It is this asymmetry
that gives 8-ball both its appeal and its quirks.  Try it sometime to see
how easy 3 fouls would be in 8-ball.  I think that there are many problems
in general with 8-ball, particularly for beginner players trying to learn
technique, runout strategy, and tactics, but introducing a 3-foul rule is
not the answer to them.

There are situations where an opponent can benefit from an intentional
foul in 8-ball, but they are fewer now with BIH rules than they used to be
with cue-ball-in-place or ball-in-the-kitchen rules.  But unless the
8-ball is completely hidden, or sitting in a pocket with the opponents
balls covering it, there is usually some tactical move that gives the
shooter the advantage.  And if not, there are stalemate rules that may
apply (e.g. in BCA 8-ball).  And if you are still frustrated with 8-ball
quirks, switch to a different game like 9-ball, 14.1, or one-pocket.

$.02 -Ron Shepard

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Tim Loc » Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>Suppose my opponent fouls.  I now have ball-in-hand.  It would be easy
>to snooker him again.  All I would have to do is find two of my balls
>lying close together, and leave the cue ball frozen against one of my
>balls.  Now he is on two fouls.  I guess the rulesmakers
>decided that too many games would be decided this way.

>This can also be done in nine-ball, but I doubt it is as easy.  I refuse
>to play nine-ball, so I don't know.

I find it easier to safety in 9-ball as there is only one ball to hide
the cue ball from. In 8-ball there could be as many as 7.
---

On the Internet, no one knows you're a VIC-20
 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by d » Sun, 19 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


>>Somebody asked me a question tonight that I didn't have an answer for.
>>We realize that there's a 3foul rule in 9 ball and not 8 ball.  Why?
>>I don't know exactly how a rule becomes a law (although thank you,
>>schoolhouse rock, I do know how a bill becomes a law :)), and I'm
>>curious why whatever cosmic power made this 9ball rule didn't do the
>>same thing to 8ball (or for that matter, any other game).

Trying to go for a run out in 8 ball and not succeeding with a 3foul
rule in place would mean an almost certain loss of game.  Thus the
game would degenerate into slowly chipping away at the balls with many
dink safeties until a cinch runout was available.  In other words, a
verrrry boring game.  

dave y.

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by SnookerU » Sun, 19 Jan 1997 04:00:00

#Trying to go for a run out in 8 ball and not succeeding with a 3foul
#rule in place would mean an almost certain loss of game.  Thus the
#game would degenerate into slowly chipping away at the balls with many
#dink safeties until a cinch runout was available.  In other words, a
#verrrry boring game.  

#dave y.

Dave,

I think 8-ball is a boring game to begin with. Probably the most boring
game in pool.
I prefer 9 ball, or Rotation where you are both shooting at the same ball
at the same time.

But then again.... I would rather be playing Snooker any day of the week,
or Carom.
Both superior even when played alone.    I can be mesmorized for hours on
a carom table....
I can't say that for 8 or 9 ball.

JMHO.
Mark Kulaga
Vice President
The United States Snooker Association.

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by JOE LE P » Mon, 20 Jan 1997 04:00:00

: The local 8-ball leauge and tournament has the need for a three foul
rule.
: What causes the need is that some gutless players foul intentionally
when
: the opponents ball is hopelessly tied up. A personal instance occured
when
: I was to shoot the 8 ball but couldnt hit it without loosing the game.

Quote:
>I don't understand the situation, Joe.  Presumably you fouled by not
>hitting the eight, and then your opponent got ball in hand.  Don't you
>lose from that position with three fouls in effect?  Without three
>fouls (as under the BCA 8-ball rules) there is a stalemate possibility,
>but then you just start another game.

Its tough to explain but essentially, the opponent fouled intentionally to
tie up the eight that was sitting in the jaws and refused to try for a
good hit. We had to go with the stalemate.
\
 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Don Bens » Mon, 20 Jan 1997 04:00:00


Quote:
>The local 8-ball leauge and tournament has the need for a three foul rule.
>What causes the need is that some gutless players foul intentionally when
>the opponents ball is hopelessly tied up. A personal instance occured when
>I was to shoot the 8 ball but couldnt hit it without loosing the game.

The only time I've seen it desired to want a three foul rule was when
the player on the 8 ball had it tied up by all his opponents balls.
Generally, this rare situation will result in a stalemate.  A fair
referee in a tournament will allow the players to start the game over.

There is one good reason for *not* instituting 3-foul in 8-ball.  If
you run 6 of your seven balls and miss while your opponent has ball in
hand with all of his balls on the table, chances are very good that he
is going to be able to play three consecutive fouls on you.  With all
the choices 7 balls provides, I can freeze the cue on one of my balls
and usually send one of my other balls down near your ball to limit
the angles at which you can hit it.

No, the three foul rule in 8-ball would be an unfair advantage to the
player with all his balls on the table.

- Don Benson -

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Duane Mor » Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:00:00

Quote:

>Hmm.  In my experience weak players more often have difficulty with
>precise cue ball placement than with shotmaking.  I don't think it's

I think the argument is that since each player has a different set of
legal balls in 8ball, that you don't need precise cueball placement.
Try it - throw all 7 solid balls on the table, 1 high, and the 8 ball.
Now, giving yourself ball in hand, snooker the high player.  Shouldn't
require too much precise cueball control.

Duane

========================================================
http://www.tiac.net/users/dmorin/
==== "Now I will believe that there are unicorns..." ===

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Don Bens » Tue, 04 Feb 1997 04:00:00


Quote:
>>There is one good reason for *not* instituting 3-foul in 8-ball.  If
>>you run 6 of your seven balls and miss while your opponent has ball in
>>hand with all of his balls on the table, chances are very good that he
>>is going to be able to play three consecutive fouls on you.  With all
>>the choices 7 balls provides, I can freeze the cue on one of my balls
>>and usually send one of my other balls down near your ball to limit
>>the angles at which you can hit it.

>WHY wouldn't  you try to run out?  With your opponent having one ball
>left, isn't this the thing to do?  If in the course of your run, you get
>into a jam
>then yes play safe, but wouldn't you do this anyway?

What if I'm not confident in my ability to run out?  I am just that
sort of player.  I'm not a great pocketer of balls, but I can freeze
the cue ball on a rail and/or ball with regularity.  This comes from
playing 100 games of one pocket vs. one evening of playing nine ball.
I play safety type shots frequently in one pocket and rarely shoot
more than 5 or 6 balls in a row.

I've considered taking up straight pool to improve my pocketing
skills, but I like one pocket so much because of the maneuvering and
thinking that goes on during the game.  I'd say it's as much fun as
playing chess, another game that I love.

- Don Benson -

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by John Walk » Tue, 04 Feb 1997 04:00:00

Quote:


>What if I'm not confident in my ability to run out?  I am just that
>sort of player.  I'm not a great pocketer of balls, but I can freeze
>the cue ball on a rail and/or ball with regularity.  This comes from
>playing 100 games of one pocket vs. one evening of playing nine ball.

Sounds like my kind of player.  

I have often been criticized for playing too safe of a game.  My reply
is usually "Fine, but why are you racking?"  (Those players that know
better usually beat my ass.)

John

 
 
 

3foul in 8ball - why not?

Post by Adrian Bradle » Sun, 09 Feb 1997 04:00:00


Quote:
>> There is one good reason for *not* instituting 3-foul in 8-ball.  If
>> you run 6 of your seven balls and miss while your opponent has ball in
>> hand with all of his balls on the table, chances are very good that he
>> is going to be able to play three consecutive fouls on you.  With all
>> the choices 7 balls provides, I can freeze the cue on one of my balls
>> and usually send one of my other balls down near your ball to limit
>> the angles at which you can hit it.

cliff> WHY wouldn't  you try to run out?  With your opponent having one ball
cliff> left, isn't this the thing to do?  If in the course of your run, you get
cliff> into a jam
cliff> then yes play safe, but wouldn't you do this anyway?

cliff> Just a thought....

Well, I've seen my opponent do this to me once in a tournament. I left one
ball, he had all his on the table, I fouled, then he picked it up and ran
out. I think most 8-ball players would do this anyways, but if there were
a three-foul rule, then it may be easier to safe...

...Picture the final tournament, with money on the line. Both players are
on the hill. One guy breaks and runs 6 balls, then fouls, leaving his 7th ball
by three of the other guy's balls. Add to this the factor that the first guy
may not be that great at kicking the ball around the rails. The opponent
might see an easier path to the money by simply safing, rather than attempting
the runout (which at one point he/she would have to break out the first
player's 7th ball in the open). Suppose the second opponent hasn't been
feeling very confident in his shotmaking abilities towards the end of a match.

easier to do so to get the money.

I haven't played in that many tournaments, but I've tanked the ones I played
in enough to know that in the heat of battle, safing seems a much better
option at times.

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