Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Ed Mercie » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:36:39


I think it's a mistake to criticize the players for not attending
Grady's tournament.  I wish they all would have gone, but the real
question is why didn't they?

I talked to Larry Nevel briefly on Sunday.  If you've been paying
attention Larry has placed second in the US Open One Pocket tournament
this year and last year.  So I asked him why didn't he go to Grady's
tournament.  I'd love to tell you he had a great reason.  He didn't.  He
mentioned that there was a Viking tour event at The Green Room in
Madison that weekend, and since he is the manager there now, he played
in it.  (He didn't win in fact which is a rare occurrence in Wisconsin.)

So we discussed a little more the two tournaments, the US Open one
pocket and Grady's event.  Grady's tournament had a lot more money added
than the US Open, but the US open filled a 64 player field, is
considering going to a 128 player field next year Larry said, and
Grady's tournament only got 46.

Larry did mention that the US Open tournament is a great tournament.  I
mentioned that the money did not seem that good.  He didn't disagree.  I
suspect that years down the road, it's probably going to appear more
important to include in your list of titles, "US Open One Pocket Champ
Runner Up 2000" then to say you got first in "Grady's One Pocket
Championship of the World." even if the money was less.  Is this one
reason?

I want to add to this discussion that I was and am still amazed at the
fact that the USA Billiards Tour could add $25,000 to each event, and
not even once get even 64 players to attend.  They had been aiming for a
couple hundred for each stop.  (An aside, I am less amazed at the fact
that they [The Billiard Channel/USA Billiards/APB Tour] seem to have
disappeared off the face of the earth, probably with some investors
moneys.  They were targeting fall of 2000 to be on the air.  Anyone hear
if they were going to make it?  Almost forgot, it's our fault, not their
fault.)

Clearly, money added is not the be all and end all to a tournament being
a smashing success.  Anyone want to postulate on what are the other less
obvious criteria that make one tournament fill and the other fall short?

--
Ed Mercier             Please           Playpool.com
President               Mail            P.O. Box 716
http://playpool.com     Your            Milwaukee, WI 53201-0716

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by lfiguero » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Well, first let me say that I had plane, hotel, and rental reservations.  In
the final analysis, I decided not to go because of the expense and weather,
combined with the fact that I haven't been playing much lately.  If it had
been somewhere I could have driven to, then I probably wouldn't have minded
donating the entry fee, going two and out, and sweating for a while.

But let's face it, unless you're on the east coast, Portland is a pain to
get to, especially if the weather is inclement.  I had heard that the event
was going to be played on just seven tables, so that didn't thrill me, in
the event of a large turnout.  I would have had to get there on Tuesday for
the Wednesday morning players meeting, vs Thursday or Friday for a "starts
on Friday" event  --  the extra couple of days drives up the hotel, rental
and food bill.  Then you have to wonder about the local player base in
Portland for a one pocket event.

Anyway, for someone like me at least, it just didn't make sense to go.  And
that's the thing that some promoters don't get  --  unless you can count on
the pros, or are running a strictly pro event, many tournaments are
supported by guys like me:  the amateurs.  It's one of the things that has
made the US Open in Kalamazoo so successful.  It's an affordable tournament
for the amateur and each year they get a great turnout by amateur players
from around the Midwest.  Of course in the end, it's the pros who benefit
from this amateur turnout.  I fear that if they do try and go "bigger and
better" that they'll drive up the entry fee and lengthen the tournament and
I don't know that they'll get all the guys that have been supporting them
for the last few years and have been willing to donate $175 and spend a
couple of days in Kalamazoo...

Lou Figueroa


Quote:
> I think it's a mistake to criticize the players for not attending
> Grady's tournament.  I wish they all would have gone, but the real
> question is why didn't they?

> I talked to Larry Nevel briefly on Sunday.  If you've been paying
> attention Larry has placed second in the US Open One Pocket tournament
> this year and last year.  So I asked him why didn't he go to Grady's
> tournament.  I'd love to tell you he had a great reason.  He didn't.  He
> mentioned that there was a Viking tour event at The Green Room in
> Madison that weekend, and since he is the manager there now, he played
> in it.  (He didn't win in fact which is a rare occurrence in Wisconsin.)

> So we discussed a little more the two tournaments, the US Open one
> pocket and Grady's event.  Grady's tournament had a lot more money added
> than the US Open, but the US open filled a 64 player field, is
> considering going to a 128 player field next year Larry said, and
> Grady's tournament only got 46.

> Larry did mention that the US Open tournament is a great tournament.  I
> mentioned that the money did not seem that good.  He didn't disagree.  I
> suspect that years down the road, it's probably going to appear more
> important to include in your list of titles, "US Open One Pocket Champ
> Runner Up 2000" then to say you got first in "Grady's One Pocket
> Championship of the World." even if the money was less.  Is this one
> reason?

> I want to add to this discussion that I was and am still amazed at the
> fact that the USA Billiards Tour could add $25,000 to each event, and
> not even once get even 64 players to attend.  They had been aiming for a
> couple hundred for each stop.  (An aside, I am less amazed at the fact
> that they [The Billiard Channel/USA Billiards/APB Tour] seem to have
> disappeared off the face of the earth, probably with some investors
> moneys.  They were targeting fall of 2000 to be on the air.  Anyone hear
> if they were going to make it?  Almost forgot, it's our fault, not their
> fault.)

> Clearly, money added is not the be all and end all to a tournament being
> a smashing success.  Anyone want to postulate on what are the other less
> obvious criteria that make one tournament fill and the other fall short?

> --
> Ed Mercier             Please           Playpool.com
> President               Mail            P.O. Box 716
> http://playpool.com     Your            Milwaukee, WI 53201-0716



 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by John Collin » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00


Quote:
> I think it's a mistake to criticize the players for not attending
> Grady's tournament.  I wish they all would have gone, but the real
> question is why didn't they?

No Ed it's not a mistake.  Top pros have often flown to Europe to compete in
an Eurotour event to fill in when there are no tournaments here.  The
Eurotour pays out about $4000 Us Dollars for first place.  I don't know
whether it's a lack of promotion, location, character, format or just plain
apathy but it is discouraging.

Quote:

> I talked to Larry Nevel briefly on Sunday.  If you've been paying
> attention Larry has placed second in the US Open One Pocket tournament
> this year and last year.  So I asked him why didn't he go to Grady's
> tournament.  I'd love to tell you he had a great reason.  He didn't.  He
> mentioned that there was a Viking tour event at The Green Room in
> Madison that weekend, and since he is the manager there now, he played
> in it.  (He didn't win in fact which is a rare occurrence in Wisconsin.)

> So we discussed a little more the two tournaments, the US Open one
> pocket and Grady's event.  Grady's tournament had a lot more money added
> than the US Open, but the US open filled a 64 player field, is
> considering going to a 128 player field next year Larry said, and
> Grady's tournament only got 46.

> Larry did mention that the US Open tournament is a great tournament.  I
> mentioned that the money did not seem that good.  He didn't disagree.  I
> suspect that years down the road, it's probably going to appear more
> important to include in your list of titles, "US Open One Pocket Champ
> Runner Up 2000" then to say you got first in "Grady's One Pocket
> Championship of the World." even if the money was less.  Is this one
> reason?

It could be, but more than likely it's location in the case of the Kalamazoo
tournament.  A lot of player's could drive there.  But I would think that in
 a time when pro tournaments are scarce that the pros would go wherever the
money is, tournaments and jellybean action.

Quote:

> I want to add to this discussion that I was and am still amazed at the
> fact that the USA Billiards Tour could add $25,000 to each event, and
> not even once get even 64 players to attend.  They had been aiming for a
> couple hundred for each stop.  (An aside, I am less amazed at the fact
> that they [The Billiard Channel/USA Billiards/APB Tour] seem to have
> disappeared off the face of the earth, probably with some investors
> moneys.  They were targeting fall of 2000 to be on the air.  Anyone hear
> if they were going to make it?  Almost forgot, it's our fault, not their
> fault.)

The website for TBC is still up.  The USA Billiards info is still about the
tournaments that were played.  No other info.

Quote:
> Clearly, money added is not the be all and end all to a tournament being
> a smashing success.  Anyone want to postulate on what are the other less
> obvious criteria that make one tournament fill and the other fall short?

Expense to attend vs. possible return.
Location - unfamiliar/hard to get to.
Amateur attraction (as Lou said it).
Venue. - Comfortable or not.
Format. - One Pocket vs. 9-Ball / Single or Double Elim.
Rules. - Known standard or proprietary.
Length of event (adds to expense).
Reputation of event.  (ex. US Open 9-Ball - 286 at $500 a pop)
Promotion. (ex. Free pre-event write ups and interviews with all billiard
publications and online sites.)
Efforts to get prepaid entries. ( I am a huge proponent of mailing lists and
selling entries at a discount for prepayment. Used to work well in Europe.)
Quality of available information about tournanment. - Event info,
accomodation info, airport access, food etc... (Website(should be standard),
flyer that can be faxed quickly, posters in poolrooms.)
Qualifiers - with expense paid entries as first prize.

John

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
> --
> Ed Mercier             Please           Playpool.com
> President               Mail            P.O. Box 716
> http://playpool.com     Your            Milwaukee, WI 53201-0716



 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Wyatt1 » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

"Brother Figueroa" as usual has hit the "nail on the head". I think it was "too
far" and went on for "too long". Unless your one of the "big boys" it must be a
loosing proposition. "If" ( as I thought I saw this morning) you finish
somewhere around 13th-16th and get in the $600 area, your still "out" money.
You have to book a room for 5 or 6 days ($300-$400), food ($100), booze ($800),
in room "dancers" ($700 an hour) etc..etc.. That is not counting "entry fee" or
air fare (if ness.). Anyhow you get my drift.It sounded like a "great
tournament", but with no "realistic" possibility of making any money or at
least of "breaking even", it has to be classified as a "vacation" instead of
"poolplaying" and NOBODY goes to Portland for a vacation.
 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Otto » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Sounds like real estate.

Location, location, location.

Otto


Quote:
> "Brother Figueroa" as usual has hit the "nail on the head". I think it was
"too
> far" and went on for "too long". Unless your one of the "big boys" it must
be a
> loosing proposition. "If" ( as I thought I saw this morning) you finish
> somewhere around 13th-16th and get in the $600 area, your still "out"
money.
> You have to book a room for 5 or 6 days ($300-$400), food ($100), booze
($800),
> in room "dancers" ($700 an hour) etc..etc.. That is not counting "entry
fee" or
> air fare (if ness.). Anyhow you get my drift.It sounded like a "great
> tournament", but with no "realistic" possibility of making any money or at
> least of "breaking even", it has to be classified as a "vacation" instead
of
> "poolplaying" and NOBODY goes to Portland for a vacation.

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Fred Agni » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Wyatt186 wrote :

Quote:
> and NOBODY goes to Portland for a vacation.

Maine's license plate has said "Vacationland" for as long as I can remember.
I always wondered who in their right mind would vacation in Maine.

Fred <~~~ has vacationed in Maine for as long as he can remember

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Patrick Johnso » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

> ... booze ($800), in room "dancers" ($700 an hour) etc...

But these are normal weekend expenses even at home, aren't they?

(You can save money by having only one "dancer"...)
Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Ed Mercie » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Grady posted the payouts on his tournament.  I compared those payouts with the
payouts for the US Open One Pocket tournament.  I took into account (for the
mathematically inclined i.e., a simple ratio) the fact that Grady's event had a
$200 Entry Fee, and the US Open One Pocket had a $175 Entry Fee.  By my
calculations, the US Open One Pocket payouts were (on average) approximately 63%
of the Grady World Championship payouts.  This should come as no surprise since
Grady had $20,000 added, and the US Open was $5,000 added.

Next I looked at the number of days required for the tournament.  The US Open
was advertised for 9/8 through 9/10, or 3 days.  Grady's tournament was
advertised for 11/1 to 11/5 or 5 days.  So if you looked simply at the time
commitment, the US Open tournament was 60% of the time commitment of Grady's
tournament.  If you were to assume that expenses are directly related to days
spent at the tournament, and you assume that the number one priority of pool
players is their expected return on their investment, it seems to me that a
person could argue that Grady's tournament was about as attractive an event to
play in as the US Open One Pocket.  The fact that all the days of the US Open
were essentially weekend days, and would have little impact on work schedules,
and that more players could drive to Kalamazoo than to Portland, thus minimizing
their expenses, it seems to me that it is not surprising that the US Open drew
more players.

I am  bring up these discussions so we can get some dialogue going on what
players are looking for in a tournament, in order to help tournament directors
plan future events.

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Ron Shepa » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:

>Expense to attend vs. possible return.
>Location - unfamiliar/hard to get to.
>Amateur attraction (as Lou said it).
>Venue. - Comfortable or not.
>Format. - One Pocket vs. 9-Ball / Single or Double Elim.
>Rules. - Known standard or proprietary.
>Length of event (adds to expense).
>Reputation of event.  (ex. US Open 9-Ball - 286 at $500 a pop)
>Promotion. (ex. Free pre-event write ups and interviews with all billiard
>publications and online sites.)
>Efforts to get prepaid entries. ( I am a huge proponent of mailing lists
>and
>selling entries at a discount for prepayment. Used to work well in Europe.)
>Quality of available information about tournanment. - Event info,
>accomodation info, airport access, food etc... (Website(should be standard),
>flyer that can be faxed quickly, posters in poolrooms.)
>Qualifiers - with expense paid entries as first prize.

This is a great checklist for tournament organizers.

$.02 -Ron Shepard

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Joey » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

As an amateur pool player and a business owner, I don't like taking off more
than one or two work days for any tournament.  There are other locals who
also enjoy going to tournaments but normally just like to watch.    They
too, have time constraints as well as financial considerations.  (Some of
these guys are guaranteed to not come in the money)  I believe they enjoy
going to tournaments where there is going to be some "amateur" jellybean
action that they can participate in (but this also is not a necessity-just
added appeal.)

Weekend tournaments are the best for most of us to go to.  Taking off a
Friday is seldom a problem.  Add in a Thursday and now I have to be
selective.  If I take my son with me, the wife doesn't care if I take a week
off. :-)  My son doesn't share the same amount of enthusiasm as I do, so I
wouldn't subject him to a multiple day tournament that he couldn't get away
from.  But he does go with me on occasion to regional tournaments and enjoys
watching me compete.  He probably does that because he remembers how many
times I sat in the bleachers at his school sport events.  I always enjoyed
watching him compete.  It must be in his ***.   :-)

One thing I LOVE about tournaments is if the tournament is held in the same
building as where I sleep.  That made this past year's US Open One Pocket
tournament one of my most enjoyable experiences.  If they expand the field
to 128, they will probably need multiple days added and if that is the case,
they may lose me as well.

JoeyA



Quote:
> Grady posted the payouts on his tournament.  I compared those payouts with
the
> payouts for the US Open One Pocket tournament.  I took into account (for
the
> mathematically inclined i.e., a simple ratio) the fact that Grady's event
had a
> $200 Entry Fee, and the US Open One Pocket had a $175 Entry Fee.  By my
> calculations, the US Open One Pocket payouts were (on average)
approximately 63%
> of the Grady World Championship payouts.  This should come as no surprise
since
> Grady had $20,000 added, and the US Open was $5,000 added.

> Next I looked at the number of days required for the tournament.  The US
Open
> was advertised for 9/8 through 9/10, or 3 days.  Grady's tournament was
> advertised for 11/1 to 11/5 or 5 days.  So if you looked simply at the
time
> commitment, the US Open tournament was 60% of the time commitment of
Grady's
> tournament.  If you were to assume that expenses are directly related to
days
> spent at the tournament, and you assume that the number one priority of
pool
> players is their expected return on their investment, it seems to me that
a
> person could argue that Grady's tournament was about as attractive an
event to
> play in as the US Open One Pocket.  The fact that all the days of the US
Open
> were essentially weekend days, and would have little impact on work
schedules,
> and that more players could drive to Kalamazoo than to Portland, thus
minimizing
> their expenses, it seems to me that it is not surprising that the US Open
drew
> more players.

> I am  bring up these discussions so we can get some dialogue going on what
> players are looking for in a tournament, in order to help tournament
directors
> plan future events.

 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by Fran » Wed, 08 Nov 2000 04:00:00

Quote:
> One thing I LOVE about tournaments is if the tournament is held in the same
> building as where I sleep.

This is one thing I like about the Super Expo in Pa. in March. If you get a room
in the convention center, you can sleep until just before your match (which may
be at 4AM, in my experience).
Frank
 
 
 

Grady's One Pocket Championship of the World versus US Open One Pocket

Post by bmandrew » Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:36:53

Ed,

Thanks for taking time to bring this discussion up and breaking down the 2
tournaments. Just reading this thread provided valuable information
regarding tournaments and the projections that have to be made in putting on
an event like this.

These are my questions for Grady:

1. Was it worth the time, effort and money to put this tournament together
considering the turnout?
2. How much was gained or lost from putting on this event?
3. Why did Grady pick this location?

Looking back over the years I cannot remember many tournaments that went on
for more than 3 days being very successful here in Southern California.

Once again, thanks for starting this thread.

Respectfully,

Brian Andrews