Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Bill » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 03:51:23


There are a couple of other players who during a game, will tell me how to
aim, that my stroke should be longer, etc., etc. And basically that the way
I play pool is all wrong. So they "help" me by giving me unsolicited
advice.

Now I never ask them for any help...

When I play the way they want me to, I start shooting like ***and can't
make a ball to save my life.

And it seems the better I get, the more "advice" they want to give me!

Being scientific here, when I play with these people and listen to their
advice, my game gets worse. When I don't play with them, don't listen to
their advice, and follow my own program of practice (based on books I've
read), my game gets better.

I wonder if these people are sharking me by telling me how to play pool
without my asking them for help? I don't understand why it is so important
to THEM (to the point of them getting visibly upset sometimes) that I play
MY game THEIR way????

I could care less how other people shoot their balls in. If they ask me for
help, I'm more than happy to give some pointers. If they want more help
after that, I will do so. Otherwise I will not say a word more.

These players who give me "advice" are top players who frequently beat me
and most other players. (I have been starting to win a few games here and
there when I play them.) And they do themselves play the way they want me
to play. (They want me to play exactly like they do, using long strokes for
every shot.) But I want to use short strokes (bridge) on some shots and
long strokes (bridge) on other shots.

Note that one of these people does shark. He talks while you are shooting,
comments on your shots, and does everything possible to***up your
concentration. The other one does not shark and is well behaved.

So are they sharking me [by giving advice] or truly trying to improve my
game, is what I am wondering. And if they are trying to improve my game,
why is it so important to them that I become a Mosconi or something? I
think I would rather go to the "dark side" and become a Minnesota Fats...
He He He...

 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by ratche » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 04:36:35

Well , it can read 2 ways , they either see you improving and really want to
help by showing you a few new tricks to help you , or they are messing with
your head !! You be the judge !!
Quote:
>>>Ratchet<<<

> There are a couple of other players who during a game, will tell me how to
> aim, that my stroke should be longer, etc., etc. And basically that the way
> I play pool is all wrong. So they "help" me by giving me unsolicited
> advice.

> Now I never ask them for any help...

> When I play the way they want me to, I start shooting like ***and can't
> make a ball to save my life.

> And it seems the better I get, the more "advice" they want to give me!

> Being scientific here, when I play with these people and listen to their
> advice, my game gets worse. When I don't play with them, don't listen to
> their advice, and follow my own program of practice (based on books I've
> read), my game gets better.

> I wonder if these people are sharking me by telling me how to play pool
> without my asking them for help? I don't understand why it is so important
> to THEM (to the point of them getting visibly upset sometimes) that I play
> MY game THEIR way????

> I could care less how other people shoot their balls in. If they ask me for
> help, I'm more than happy to give some pointers. If they want more help
> after that, I will do so. Otherwise I will not say a word more.

> These players who give me "advice" are top players who frequently beat me
> and most other players. (I have been starting to win a few games here and
> there when I play them.) And they do themselves play the way they want me
> to play. (They want me to play exactly like they do, using long strokes for
> every shot.) But I want to use short strokes (bridge) on some shots and
> long strokes (bridge) on other shots.

> Note that one of these people does shark. He talks while you are shooting,
> comments on your shots, and does everything possible to***up your
> concentration. The other one does not shark and is well behaved.

> So are they sharking me [by giving advice] or truly trying to improve my
> game, is what I am wondering. And if they are trying to improve my game,
> why is it so important to them that I become a Mosconi or something? I
> think I would rather go to the "dark side" and become a Minnesota Fats...
> He He He...


 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by dalecu » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 05:07:16

Quote:

>There are a couple of other players who during a game, will tell me how to
>aim, that my stroke should be longer, etc., etc. And basically that the way
>I play pool is all wrong. So they "help" me by giving me unsolicited
>advice.

>Now I never ask them for any help...

>When I play the way they want me to, I start shooting like ***and can't
>make a ball to save my life.

>And it seems the better I get, the more "advice" they want to give me!

>Being scientific here, when I play with these people and listen to their
>advice, my game gets worse. When I don't play with them, don't listen to
>their advice, and follow my own program of practice (based on books I've
>read), my game gets better.

>I wonder if these people are sharking me by telling me how to play pool
>without my asking them for help? I don't understand why it is so important
>to THEM (to the point of them getting visibly upset sometimes) that I play
>MY game THEIR way????

>I could care less how other people shoot their balls in. If they ask me for
>help, I'm more than happy to give some pointers. If they want more help
>after that, I will do so. Otherwise I will not say a word more.

>These players who give me "advice" are top players who frequently beat me
>and most other players. (I have been starting to win a few games here and
>there when I play them.) And they do themselves play the way they want me
>to play. (They want me to play exactly like they do, using long strokes for
>every shot.) But I want to use short strokes (bridge) on some shots and
>long strokes (bridge) on other shots.

>Note that one of these people does shark. He talks while you are shooting,
>comments on your shots, and does everything possible to***up your
>concentration. The other one does not shark and is well behaved.

>So are they sharking me [by giving advice] or truly trying to improve my
>game, is what I am wondering. And if they are trying to improve my game,
>why is it so important to them that I become a Mosconi or something? I
>think I would rather go to the "dark side" and become a Minnesota Fats...
>He He He...

a couple of semi-educated guesses

you didn't explain the context - are you playing in a league on the same
team? if so, it could be because they really want you to win

advising a player while he is shooting is a type of sharking - that may or
may not be the intent, they might just want to demonstrate to you
and the world how expert and knowledgeable they are - this is not
uncommon amoung some players

from your post it sounds like they play quite a bit better than you
so it would be normal to think their 'way-to-play' is better

if they are good players, they should understand it is certain death
to try to change your style in the middle of a game - even if the
advice is the absolute best in the world, your game wil almost certainly
suffer if you try to change 'on the spot'

in a way, you are lucky these guys take an interest in your game,
in the future, you might try explaining you appreciate their pointers,
and will try to use them the very next time you practice - but you
know if you try now, it will hurt your game, rather than help

as for the 'chatty kathy' guy - the big picture, I'm sorry, but it shouldn't
affect your play, if it does, that shows you aren't focused enough
on the game - I know this is a lot easier said than done - in my early
days of playing, someone talking while I shot was very distracting
and really threw me off - now, it doesn't bother me at all, tho sometimes I
do find it annoying

suggestions for quieting the 'talker' - to be tried in the following order

1. explain politely that tho you value his pointers, it distracts you
to do it while you are shooting - if he gives you some version of
the the above lecture - respond with the resons why

2. stop shooting whenever he starts talking

3. if 2 doesn't work, get up out of you stance and look directly at him
but don't say a word - this will get the point across to all but the most
compulsive

4. same as 3 but say something cute like "are you done yet?"

keep in mind - talking while someone is shooting is a hard habit
to break, even if it isn't meant to be a shark

HTH
Dale

- Show quoted text -


 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Patrick Johnso » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 05:47:41

Quote:

> Being scientific here, when I play with these people and listen to their
> advice, my game gets worse. When I don't play with them, don't listen to
> their advice, and follow my own program of practice (based on books I've
> read), my game gets better.

This could be true whether or not their advice is good.  Trying to
change your technique, even a good change, will often cause a slump
until you get used to the change.

Quote:
> I could care less how other people shoot their balls in.

You'll miss lots of opportunities for improvement with that attitude.

Quote:
> These players who give me "advice" are top players who frequently beat me
> and most other players.

This doesn't mean their advice is necessarily good (or bad).

Quote:
> So are they sharking me [by giving advice] or truly trying to improve my
> game, is what I am wondering.

How are we supposed to know?

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Ninebal3 » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 05:57:58

Quote:
>From: "dalecue"
>as for the 'chatty kathy' guy - the big picture, I'm sorry, but it shouldn't
>affect your play, if it does, that shows you aren't focused enough
>on the game - I know this is a lot easier said than done - in my early
>days of playing, someone talking while I shot was very distracting
>and really threw me off - now, it doesn't bother me at all, tho sometimes I
>do find it annoying

>suggestions for quieting the 'talker' - to be tried in the following order

>1. explain politely that tho you value his pointers, it distracts you
>to do it while you are shooting - if he gives you some version of
>the the above lecture - respond with the resons why

>2. stop shooting whenever he starts talking

>3. if 2 doesn't work, get up out of you stance and look directly at him
>but don't say a word - this will get the point across to all but the most
>compulsive

>4. same as 3 but say something cute like "are you done yet?"

>keep in mind - talking while someone is shooting is a hard habit
>to break, even if it isn't meant to be a shark

>HTH
>Dale

    Good advise, but you left out one way to practice "ignoring others". I use
to listen to what people said while I was shooting. After learning to ignore my
wife when she speaks, I found it very useful in pool too. :-)
Hank
remove "mitted" for emailing
 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Michael Pag » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:31:24


[...]

Quote:
> Being scientific here, when I play with these people and listen to their
> advice, my game gets worse. When I don't play with them, don't listen to
> their advice, and follow my own program of practice (based on books I've
> read), my game gets better.

Lots of good advice works like this.  It's value is that it improves
next year's game, not tomorrow's game.  On the other hand there's tons
of lousy advice out there, even from good players.

Quote:
> I wonder if these people are sharking me by telling me how to play pool
> without my asking them for help? I don't understand why it is so important
> to THEM (to the point of them getting visibly upset sometimes) that I play
> MY game THEIR way????

They are getting visibly upset?  I guess I can hear the words my father
used to say to me.  WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LISTEN?

Quote:

> I could care less how other people shoot their balls in. If they ask me for
> help, I'm more than happy to give some pointers. If they want more help
> after that, I will do so. Otherwise I will not say a word more.

> These players who give me "advice" are top players who frequently beat me
> and most other players. (I have been starting to win a few games here and
> there when I play them.) And they do themselves play the way they want me
> to play.

If they are top players and beat you most of the time, there probably
is some wheat mixed in with the chaffe.  

(They want me to play exactly like they do, using long strokes for

Quote:
> every shot.) But I want to use short strokes (bridge) on some shots and
> long strokes (bridge) on other shots.

What else do they say?  Do they tell you to keep your head down?  Do
they tell you to follow through and not raise the tip of the stick.  Do
they tell you to get down lower with your chin closer to the cue?  

Quote:

> Note that one of these people does shark. He talks while you are shooting,
> comments on your shots, and does everything possible to***up your
> concentration. The other one does not shark and is well behaved.

The fact two different players give you unsolicited advice suggests to
me your mechanics scream GIVE ME ADVICE.  On the other hand I suppose
it could be a ***...

I get unsolicited advice from one of my teammates.  He is a much better
player than me, and I really appreciate it.  He doesn't do it often,
but when he does it makes me think--and it usually makes good sense to
me.

 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by brui.. » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:50:44

if you know yourself, you should be immune to all the advice you get.
first of all,,,,they don't know what's going on in your head.
secondly,,,some of the worst advice i've ever heard are from pool
players because they don't know how to communicate, or are not
terribly knowledgable about their sport. all they can do is "show you
stuff".......that's how they teach.
 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Ed » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:02:29

Most people giving advice are doing just that. How it's recieved is up to you.
It shouldn't be given during a game. Most people aren't especially adept at
giving advice and then it should be taken with caution.
Ed
Quote:

> if you know yourself, you should be immune to all the advice you get.
> first of all,,,,they don't know what's going on in your head.
> secondly,,,some of the worst advice i've ever heard are from pool
> players because they don't know how to communicate, or are not
> terribly knowledgable about their sport. all they can do is "show you
> stuff".......that's how they teach.

 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Bill » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 02:37:57

Quote:

> ...you didn't explain the context - are you playing in a league
> on the same team? if so, it could be because they really
> want you to win...

No, these two people who give me unsolicited advice are not on my league
teams, we are just playing for fun. After reading the replies on this group
(thank you) and thinking about it some more, I think the one guy is trying
to disrupt my game in any way possible, but the other is actually trying to
help me [but is not a good teacher - yet is an excellent player]. i.e. He
does not understand that I need to learn a few things on my own and it will
take time. (Like the game I played where I hit the object ball too hard and
the cue ball rolled too far back, so I lost the game because of this one
bad shot. I didn't stop to think that it was a thin cut and a lot of energy
would stay with the cue ball.)

You made me realize something though. There are a couple of people on my
APA team who just love to tell other people how to shoot their games during
tournaments. (They don't usually give me any advice since I win games when
they leave me alone and lose games when they tell me how to play.) I have
many times seen them give a player advice and then seen the player***up
the next shot while following their advice. Some players in the past have
told them to "not bother them" while they are playing. So these guys just
like to tell other people how to play and they mean well. Unfortunately it
is to the detriment of the team.

Also beginning players may be better at one type of shot than another, so
telling them to make a cut shot rather than a straight in shot for example
might make them miss the shot. The shot they are attempting to make may be
the only one they can make.

I am of the opinion that players should learn on their own by making
mistakes. Then you can give them a few pointers after the game.

 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by Bill » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:02:58

Quote:

> What else do they say?  Do they tell you to keep your head down?  Do
> they tell you to follow through and not raise the tip of the stick.  Do
> they tell you to get down lower with your chin closer to the cue?

No, basically it is the length of my stroke (bridge) that they think should
be longer and thus have better speed control. But sometimes I am playing
people who are not as good a I am and I *want* to miss intentionally. (If
you win every game, no one wants to play with you.) So I just whack it in
without any warm-up strokes or aiming and miss the shot or sometimes make
it. These "top" players see me do this and have fits. But I have fun
playing that way. When it is tournament night, I play quite differently
though. They don't see that, so they think I always play that way....
 
 
 

Unsolicited "advice" from other players - Sharking?

Post by ratche » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:06:56

I am of the opinion that players should learn on their own by
making
mistakes. Then you can give them a few pointers after the game.

Bill , I believe as you do, find a good shooter you are friends (preferably
someone with a similar style as your) and play with them for a while tell them
about
all the unsolicited advice you are getting and go from there , In my earlier
years I was a good ( natural ) bar player and I shot center ball all the time
getting natural (and unnatural) leaves but seemed to do quite well ( It paid
for my drinking , pool table time and some of my utilities ) I could shoot with
a bent bar cue and/or a broom handle , THEN the leagues came to town and my
pool world was rocked quite a bit some of the better players in my leagues
would offer me advice , some of their advice worked for me some of them didn't
but as I progressed I learned too,
one of the biggest and possibly the worst epiphanies I had was when I learned
that it was possible to control the cue ball , I was playing a 7 in the APA and
he had one ball at one end of the table and another at the opposite end and
drew the cue the lenght of the table for a straight in shot to win the match ,
after the match was over I asked to teach me how he did that , he did and my
whole (pool) world changed for the better, Now years later I find I learn
something every game , I take what works for me and throw away the rest !!

Quote:
>>> Ratchet <<< Good Luck and Good Shooting !!