First APA experience 8;(

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Larr » Thu, 20 May 2004 07:28:20


Well, I joined a local APA 9 ball league. My first league experience
since playing in several BCA leagues about eight years ago. Last night
was the first week of competition, and it was interesting, to say the
least.

Starting off as an APA 4, I drew a fellow who's a better player than I
am. My team captain tells me I just have to score thirty-some balls. I
say, "Huh?" I had read the APA Web site information, including their
handicapping table of how many games each player has to win to win the
match, and was all set to hear some game differential mentioned
...nope. Balls. Each balls counts one point except the 9 ball, which
counts two points.

Of course, this also means that shooting 9 ball combinations is
generally a bad idea -- and I love to combo the 9 ball.

So the upshot was that I was ahead in games won, against a better
player, when the match ended without even finishing the last game, on
the count of balls made,  in his favor.

It also seemed strange to me that this very good, smooth player, when
faced with a short, sharp cross table 9 ball cut with a good chance of
scratching, had to resort to his "coach" to not only analyze the shot,
but address the ball with his own cue, and then hold his finger on the
end rail as an aiming point while the player shot.

This is the APA competition that some of you folks enjoy? I suspect it
was my first and last week of play. If I'm gonna count balls, it's
going to be straight or one-pocket. not some pseudo 9 ball ***like
this. I can only imagine what APA does to 8 ball; don't think I want
to find out.

-- Larry

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by S. Armstron » Thu, 20 May 2004 07:28:47

Larry,

Just so you know, the coach isn't allowed to remain at the table while the
player shoots.  This means that your opponent's coach wouldn't be allowed to
leave his finger on the rail as an aiming point for his player.  That should
have been called a foul.

APA leagues, in general, are better for lower ranked players to help them
progress as a player.  I left the CPA (Canadian division of the APA) over a
year ago to go to BCA leagues, and I'm much happier.

Shawn Armstrong


Quote:
> Well, I joined a local APA 9 ball league. My first league experience
> since playing in several BCA leagues about eight years ago. Last night
> was the first week of competition, and it was interesting, to say the
> least.

> Starting off as an APA 4, I drew a fellow who's a better player than I
> am. My team captain tells me I just have to score thirty-some balls. I
> say, "Huh?" I had read the APA Web site information, including their
> handicapping table of how many games each player has to win to win the
> match, and was all set to hear some game differential mentioned
> ...nope. Balls. Each balls counts one point except the 9 ball, which
> counts two points.

> Of course, this also means that shooting 9 ball combinations is
> generally a bad idea -- and I love to combo the 9 ball.

> So the upshot was that I was ahead in games won, against a better
> player, when the match ended without even finishing the last game, on
> the count of balls made,  in his favor.

> It also seemed strange to me that this very good, smooth player, when
> faced with a short, sharp cross table 9 ball cut with a good chance of
> scratching, had to resort to his "coach" to not only analyze the shot,
> but address the ball with his own cue, and then hold his finger on the
> end rail as an aiming point while the player shot.

> This is the APA competition that some of you folks enjoy? I suspect it
> was my first and last week of play. If I'm gonna count balls, it's
> going to be straight or one-pocket. not some pseudo 9 ball ***like
> this. I can only imagine what APA does to 8 ball; don't think I want
> to find out.

> -- Larry


 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Devi » Thu, 20 May 2004 08:11:44

Seems to me you had a bad attitude before you started and you wouldn't have
been happy no matter what.

I bet no organized type of play will suite you.

And the rules for "9 ball" on the APA website clearly tells that the score
is done through scoring "balls" not games.

I would sugest you read all the material available to you as in the "Team
Manual" and "Rule Book"

You obviously thought this was some kind of personal one-on-one kind of
play, when it is in all aspects a "Team" sport unless you play in the
singles events.

Quickly you will notice that the rules in place, scoring, and handicaping
make sense.


Quote:
> Well, I joined a local APA 9 ball league. My first league experience
> since playing in several BCA leagues about eight years ago. Last night
> was the first week of competition, and it was interesting, to say the
> least.

> Starting off as an APA 4, I drew a fellow who's a better player than I
> am. My team captain tells me I just have to score thirty-some balls. I
> say, "Huh?" I had read the APA Web site information, including their
> handicapping table of how many games each player has to win to win the
> match, and was all set to hear some game differential mentioned
> ...nope. Balls. Each balls counts one point except the 9 ball, which
> counts two points.

> Of course, this also means that shooting 9 ball combinations is
> generally a bad idea -- and I love to combo the 9 ball.

> So the upshot was that I was ahead in games won, against a better
> player, when the match ended without even finishing the last game, on
> the count of balls made,  in his favor.

> It also seemed strange to me that this very good, smooth player, when
> faced with a short, sharp cross table 9 ball cut with a good chance of
> scratching, had to resort to his "coach" to not only analyze the shot,
> but address the ball with his own cue, and then hold his finger on the
> end rail as an aiming point while the player shot.

> This is the APA competition that some of you folks enjoy? I suspect it
> was my first and last week of play. If I'm gonna count balls, it's
> going to be straight or one-pocket. not some pseudo 9 ball ***like
> this. I can only imagine what APA does to 8 ball; don't think I want
> to find out.

> -- Larry


 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Steve Elli » Thu, 20 May 2004 09:43:58

Quote:

>Well, I joined a local APA 9 ball league. My first league experience
>since playing in several BCA leagues about eight years ago. Last night
>was the first week of competition, and it was interesting, to say the
>least.

>Starting off as an APA 4, I drew a fellow who's a better player than I
>am. My team captain tells me I just have to score thirty-some balls. I
>say, "Huh?" I had read the APA Web site information, including their
>handicapping table of how many games each player has to win to win the
>match, and was all set to hear some game differential mentioned
>...nope. Balls. Each balls counts one point except the 9 ball, which
>counts two points.

>Of course, this also means that shooting 9 ball combinations is
>generally a bad idea -- and I love to combo the 9 ball.

>So the upshot was that I was ahead in games won, against a better
>player, when the match ended without even finishing the last game, on
>the count of balls made,  in his favor.

>It also seemed strange to me that this very good, smooth player, when
>faced with a short, sharp cross table 9 ball cut with a good chance of
>scratching, had to resort to his "coach" to not only analyze the shot,
>but address the ball with his own cue, and then hold his finger on the
>end rail as an aiming point while the player shot.

I think this may be illegal, he can do almost anything coaching but not that.

Quote:

>This is the APA competition that some of you folks enjoy? I suspect it
>was my first and last week of play. If I'm gonna count balls, it's

Personally I like the scoring system. It is very easy to handicap, if find games on the
wire really does you no good at all against a significantly better player. It also
encourages a person to keep trying even when there clearly losing the match because it
effects team total points. And I just can't stand the fact that Texas express depends
entirely on the 9. I guess if you like to gamble it can create the illusion you can play
with a better player, but it really is only an illusion.
JMHO.

Quote:
>going to be straight or one-pocket. not some pseudo 9 ball ***like
>this. I can only imagine what APA does to 8 ball; don't think I want

Same as anyplace else except slop is okay except on the 8.

- Show quoted text -

Quote:
>to find out.

>-- Larry

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by pltrgys » Thu, 20 May 2004 12:16:40

Quote:

>Seems to me you had a bad attitude before you started and you wouldn't have
>been happy no matter what.

The only thing I didn't care for going in was the lack of the push-out, But I
figured to cope with that. They all seem like a nice bunch of guys, and we had a
good time playing games on the warm-up tables for an hour+ before league play
started.

Quote:
>I bet no organized type of play will suite you.

That might be, but I played BCA 8-and 9-ball for about five years, and enjoyed
the team competition thoroughly (except for the occasional inevitable drunk or
sore loser).

Quote:
>You obviously thought this was some kind of personal one-on-one kind of
>play, when it is in all aspects a "Team" sport unless you play in the
>singles events.

What I read was the Web page at http://www.poolplayers.com/equalizer.html. I see
no advice there that this applies only to singles, and not to team competition.

I thought it was more like the BCA format, except handicapped by games within
the individual matchup of team play, rather than by games within the team total,
as BCA did. With this balls made stuff, you're not playing 9-ball anymore.

Quote:
>Quickly you will notice that the rules in place, scoring, and handicaping
>make sense.

They might make sense to those who organized and administer them but they're not
a form of the game I'd enjoy. You are right, I can have more fun matching up
with the other semi-regulars that I already know.

-- Larry

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Bob Jewet » Fri, 21 May 2004 03:51:34

Quote:

> Personally I like the scoring system.  It is very easy to
> handicap, if find games on the wire really does you no good at
> all against a significantly better player.

Having played and lost 0-2 while giving up 10-2, I disagree.
In most leagues that handicap by game spots the spots are not
50-50 nor are they intended to be.

I think the APA could have a much fairer and transparent
handicapping system, but it probably would not be in their
interest to do so.

--

Bob Jewett
http://www.sfbilliards.com/

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Bob Jewet » Fri, 21 May 2004 05:02:27

Quote:

> Personally I like the scoring system.  It is very easy to
> handicap, if find games on the wire really does you no good at
> all against a significantly better player.

Having played and lost 0-2 while giving up 10-2, I disagree.
In most leagues that handicap by game spots the spots are not
50-50 nor are they intended to be.

I think the APA could have a much fairer and transparent
handicapping system, but it probably would not be in their
interest to do so.

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Abo » Fri, 21 May 2004 07:19:04

Quote:

> I think the APA could have a much fairer and transparent
> handicapping system, but it probably would not be in their
> interest to do so.

While I agree that the handi-capping system in the APA is not perfect,
it would be kind of silly to make it "transparent" as you suggest.
You think sandbagging is bad NOW?  With all the team captains that
think they know how the system works.  Can you imagine if everyone
really DID know how it worked?

I've had good and bad experiences with the APA in my area, but for the
most part it's positive.  I get to compete in something that means a
little something and doesn't break my wallet.  I also get the
opportunity to watch a lot of folks shoot and learn from them.  I also
get to match up for some coin if I want to... *shrugs*

Now, all that being said.  I play APA 8-ball, not 9-ball.  I hate
riding the 9 though, so the whole "balls vs. games" argument is kind
of lost on me, as they would be the same thing.

Someday, the pool hall where I play will bring back their BCA
league... maybe.  If they do, I'll play.  Until then, I'll keep
entering every local tourny I come across and keep trying.

If I were you, I would learn the rules, and just give it a chance.  If
you enjoy the folks you play with, pool is one of the most enjoyable
experiences I've had in my life.  It makes me sad to find some people
so bitter about a few little things, when the game itself is the
perfect pass-time. :P

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by pltrgys » Fri, 21 May 2004 10:16:36


Quote:
>Now, all that being said.  I play APA 8-ball, not 9-ball.  I hate
>riding the 9 though, so the whole "balls vs. games" argument is kind
>of lost on me, as they would be the same thing.

That statement would seem to indicate that either you're so good that breaking
out a tied-up ball is never a problem for you, or that you don't believe the
popular belief that you shouldn't make a ball unless you believe you can run
out.

IMO, at my level in 9 ball, they're rarely the same thing.

-- Larry

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Stev » Fri, 21 May 2004 19:23:37

Quote:


> >Now, all that being said.  I play APA 8-ball, not 9-ball.  I hate
> >riding the 9 though, so the whole "balls vs. games" argument is kind
> >of lost on me, as they would be the same thing.

> That statement would seem to indicate that either you're so good that breaking
> out a tied-up ball is never a problem for you, or that you don't believe the
> popular belief that you shouldn't make a ball unless you believe you can run
> out.

> IMO, at my level in 9 ball, they're rarely the same thing.

> -- Larry

Or he just means he doesn't like the practice of "riding the 9-nine
ball" in terms of game enjoyment. In which case I would tend to agree
with him. Now that I think about it I just don't like traditional
9-ball. ;-)
Steve.
 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Stev » Fri, 21 May 2004 19:23:37

Quote:


> >Now, all that being said.  I play APA 8-ball, not 9-ball.  I hate
> >riding the 9 though, so the whole "balls vs. games" argument is kind
> >of lost on me, as they would be the same thing.

> That statement would seem to indicate that either you're so good that breaking
> out a tied-up ball is never a problem for you, or that you don't believe the
> popular belief that you shouldn't make a ball unless you believe you can run
> out.

> IMO, at my level in 9 ball, they're rarely the same thing.

> -- Larry

Or he just means he doesn't like the practice of "riding the 9-nine
ball" in terms of game enjoyment. In which case I would tend to agree
with him. Now that I think about it I just don't like traditional
9-ball. ;-)
Steve.
 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Stev » Fri, 21 May 2004 19:40:36

Quote:


> > Personally I like the scoring system.  It is very easy to
> > handicap, if find games on the wire really does you no good at
> > all against a significantly better player.

> Having played and lost 0-2 while giving up 10-2, I disagree.

I think that is the exception and is why the 9-ball is a good game for
gamblers. The better player should always win, but the occasional win
by the lesser skilled person is enough to keep him coming back for
more.

In terms of the APA I think what makes their system appropriate is the
fact that if a low ranked player loses in a close match his team gets
some credit for his efforts. The APA is all about making it
interesting for lower ranked players, that is their bread and butter.
Therefore, very good players like yourself may get frustrated with the
APA.

I like playing for points (ball count) as opposed to Texas Express,
just because it is more enjoyable to me. It combines the long term
point accumulating style of straight pool with the speed of 9-ball.
The friends I have introduced to the system have liked it, of course
they're old farts like me. ;-)

In the long run "to each his own", that after all is what makes the
world a more interesting place to be.

Quote:
> In most leagues that handicap by game spots the spots are not
> 50-50 nor are they intended to be.

> I think the APA could have a much fairer and transparent
> handicapping system, but it probably would not be in their
> interest to do so.

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Ro » Sun, 23 May 2004 00:07:11

I was out of town when this message was first posted, but a couple
observations:

[snip]

Quote:
> Of course, this also means that shooting 9 ball combinations is
> generally a bad idea -- and I love to combo the 9 ball.

I don't agree with this at all. If you have a solid break and can
consistently make 1-3 balls on the break, then the 9-ball is
effectively worth 3-5 points every time since sinking it wins you the
next break. If you can run a rack, then the 9 is worth even more. If
there is a simple combo to the 9, I take it every time.

Quote:
>  [snip]

> This is the APA competition that some of you folks enjoy? I suspect it
> was my first and last week of play. If I'm gonna count balls, it's
> going to be straight or one-pocket. not some pseudo 9 ball ***like
> this.

Not the first time I've heard this complaint. Am I the only one who
played $1-a-ball 9-ball before? That's basically what APA 9-ball is,
but spotting the other guy 10 or 20 balls to make it a more even
match. It's *** for points instead of money. I can understand if
that's not your cup of tea, but I don't think it makes APA "pseudo 9
ball crap."

Rob

 
 
 

First APA experience 8;(

Post by Larr » Sun, 23 May 2004 02:22:51

Quote:

>I don't agree with this at all. If you have a solid break and can
>consistently make 1-3 balls on the break, then the 9-ball is
>effectively worth 3-5 points every time since sinking it wins you the
>next break. If you can run a rack, then the 9 is worth even more. If
>there is a simple combo to the 9, I take it every time.

That was my thinking too -- but I know that at least three of the team
captains (including mine) in this six-team league get bent out of
shape if anyone does that.

Quote:
>Not the first time I've heard this complaint. Am I the only one who
>played $1-a-ball 9-ball before? That's basically what APA 9-ball is,

I've never heard of that game.

Quote:
>but spotting the other guy 10 or 20 balls to make it a more even
>match. It's *** for points instead of money. I can understand if
>that's not your cup of tea, but I don't think it makes APA "pseudo 9
>ball crap."

The problem is that it's billed as a 9 ball league, Rob.

-- Larry

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First APA experience 8;(

Post by Devi » Sun, 23 May 2004 02:43:50

Quote:

> The problem is that it's billed as a 9 ball league, Rob.

What about it is not 9 ball?
You shoot the lowest balls in order with the 9 ending the game.

The person that gets the 9 in wins that game. It's just that there is no
value in winning the game itself.

To more accurately handicap 9 ball the APA has given value to the balls
instead of wins.
If you can increase the amount of data from anything, you can more
accurately deduct an average.
A win vs a loss is much less data than each ball being valued. At least they
give you 2 points for the 9.

The APA Handicap is largely based on how many balls you can make vs how many
innings you played.

Think about how many 9's a higher player could make in before a low level
player could make one. Merely the number of wins does not tell you much
about the skill of either player. How many balls could be sank obviously
tells you more. Of course this also means a different kind of strategy for
this kind of play. One difference might be the incentive to shoot the 9
early. It's not much different that playing safe instead of going for a
point.

To build a league you have to constantly recruit new players, often new
players are not skilled and with a win only scoring system it would be very
difficult for the low skilled players to get any wins against a higher
skilled player at 9 ball.

Handicapping basically brings all players to a similar ground so that anyone
can win at any given time.
This is how you grow a league, make money, and make pool a more popular
sport.

This is also why most higher level players do not like handicapping, because
they often can't stand losing to low level players. But thankfully for APA
and others like it, there are far more low skilled level players than there
are high level players. But I know for a fact that with the right attitude
that even high level players can enjoy playing in a handicap league.

All of the above is only my opinion. Take it for what it's worth, which
might not be much.