"Rolling the Ball"

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Bob Hartm » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 02:42:42


Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
for position.
Presumedly it has to do more with the accuracy of the shot as opposed
to gettion position. But why is using draw more accurate in
shotmaking? This question assumes all else is equal; speed, etc.

Bob Hartman...needs to know

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Pearl- » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 03:00:51

do you meen using follow whilst shooting?

Pearl-0, also in Detroit


Quote:
> Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
> for position.
> Presumedly it has to do more with the accuracy of the shot as opposed
> to gettion position. But why is using draw more accurate in
> shotmaking? This question assumes all else is equal; speed, etc.

> Bob Hartman...needs to know

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Jennife » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 04:25:47

"rolling the ball" generally refers a forward motion while "draw" generally
refers to a backward spinning of the ball.  These two terms refer to two
different directions.

Perhaps by draw, you meant striking the ball with "stop" english which can
be firm and on the lower half of the ball, looking like a draw stroke but
actually meant to just stop the ball.  The reason I might use stop english
versus just rolling my object ball to the hole depends on several things.
#1, all pool tables roll off.  So when you roll the ball, it's liable to not
go where you intended it to go.  Stop english can be more accurate.
Sometimes I'd like to use "stop english" for exact positioning but can't
because the cue ball is frozen on a rail and I'll have to roll the ball
instead.

--
Jennifer
http://www.jessnjenn.net/cgi-bin/ib/ikonbard.cgi
**remove the NOSPAM from my email address before sending**


| Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
| for position.
| Presumedly it has to do more with the accuracy of the shot as opposed
| to gettion position. But why is using draw more accurate in
| shotmaking? This question assumes all else is equal; speed, etc.
|
| Bob Hartman...needs to know

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Patrick Johnso » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 08:25:56

Quote:
> Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
> for position.

Taking your word for the fact that they actually do this (I would have thought
otherwise), I suppose it's because draw position is usually shorter.

Quote:
> ... why is using draw more accurate in shotmaking?

I believe it's the other way around (because draw creates more ball/cloth
friction to go wrong, such as swerve), but one possible reason is so they can
hit a little harder, as Jennifer says, and avoid potential table surface
irregularities.  However, I don't agree with her that all tables roll off or
that hitting below center is always for stop or draw.  Many times it's for
controlled follow (the common "drag" shot).

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Gregor » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 09:50:32

Bob Hartman wrote

Quote:
> Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball'
> compared to using draw for position?

I don't know that they do.
Where did you get this information?
 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Thierry Layan » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 10:55:24

Most pro players will prefer to 'hit' the ball rather firmly than just roll
it because they usually deliver a better stroke when they 'hit' the ball
with authority. I'm not saying they're shooting harder but it seems (and I
do that too) that it's a sign of good stroking and it prevents you from
hitting the ball badly. Also if you put a little sidespin (not volontarily)
on the cueball it will not have time to swerve where as a slow roll shot
will make the ball swerve more and could result in a miss.
It seems the natural motion in our 'best stroke' is accomplished at a
certain speed, that speed being the one needed for a backspin.
That's why most pro player don't roll the ball often (only if necessary) in
order to deliver a good stroke. I noticed the more a player gets in the
zone, the more he hits the balls with authority. Note also that the more a
player is nervous the more he's gonna roll the ball (which marks a lack of
confidence).
I don't know if this is the meaning of your question but it seems related to
it anyway.

Thierry Layani
www.layanicues.com


Quote:
> Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
> for position.
> Presumedly it has to do more with the accuracy of the shot as opposed
> to gettion position. But why is using draw more accurate in
> shotmaking? This question assumes all else is equal; speed, etc.

> Bob Hartman...needs to know

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Bob Hartm » Tue, 07 Jan 2003 22:39:47

Quote:

> Most pro players will prefer to 'hit' the ball rather firmly than just roll
> it because they usually deliver a better stroke when they 'hit' the ball
> with authority. I'm not saying they're shooting harder but it seems (and I
> do that too) that it's a sign of good stroking and it prevents you from
> hitting the ball badly. Also if you put a little sidespin (not volontarily)
> on the cueball it will not have time to swerve where as a slow roll shot
> will make the ball swerve more and could result in a miss.
> It seems the natural motion in our 'best stroke' is accomplished at a
> certain speed, that speed being the one needed for a backspin.
> That's why most pro player don't roll the ball often (only if necessary) in
> order to deliver a good stroke. I noticed the more a player gets in the
> zone, the more he hits the balls with authority. Note also that the more a
> player is nervous the more he's gonna roll the ball (which marks a lack of
> confidence).
> I don't know if this is the meaning of your question but it seems related to
> it anyway.

> Thierry Layani
> www.layanicues.com

Thierry, I believe your explanation is very accurate, imo.  Kim
Davenpot was comentating on a PBT match between Wetch and Parica and
accurately predicted with concern in his voice, Uh,oh he is going to
have to "roll the ball". Jimmy did shoot with follow, using some
inside english, made the shot, but over cut it and lost position as
you can see.  My assumption is 'they' do not like to use follow even
when no english is required?  Here's the shot.

 START(
%GN3L7%H_0Z7%Ip9O5%Pb6L2%UD0S8%VN7M3%WO7M2%Xa6K8%YC5B8%ZM8L1
%[Z4U7%\C3T2%eC3`4
)END

Bob Hartman... beginning to appreciate draw more

- Show quoted text -

Quote:


> > Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
> > for position.
> > Presumedly it has to do more with the accuracy of the shot as opposed
> > to gettion position. But why is using draw more accurate in
> > shotmaking? This question assumes all else is equal; speed, etc.

> > Bob Hartman...needs to know

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Patrick Johnso » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 02:18:43

Quote:
> It seems the natural motion in our 'best stroke' is accomplished at a
> certain speed, that speed being the one needed for a backspin.

I don't believe there's a speed range that's "needed" for backspin
that's necessarily higher than what's "needed" for follow.  You can use
quite a lot of speed on follow shots, adjusting the amount of follow
that results by hitting higher or lower on the cue ball, just as you can
do the same thing (in reverse) with draw.

I agree that most players have a "comfort range" of speed that works
best for them, but I'm not sure this translates to using draw more than
follow.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Bob Jewet » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 04:38:10

Quote:

> I don't believe there's a speed range that's "needed" for
> backspin that's necessarily higher than what's "needed" for
> follow.  You can use quite a lot of speed on follow shots,
> adjusting the amount of follow that results by hitting higher
> or lower on the cue ball, just as you can do the same thing (in
> reverse) with draw.

But on shots with a lot of distance between the cue ball and the
object ball, and on worn cloth, you have to hit the cue ball hard
to keep any significant draw on it all the way to the object
ball.  This is well modelled in Virtual Pool, and in practice/
tracking mode you can adjust only the amount of draw/follow and
see how much harder you have to hit on most draw shots.

Here is an example to try on a table: cue ball on the headstring,
object ball three diamonds away straight into a corner pocket.
Try to follow forward three diamonds and then try to draw back
three diamonds from the object ball.

In my experience, on average, draw shots must be struck harder
than follow shots.

--

Bob Jewett

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Patrick Johnso » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 04:41:48

Quote:
> ... This is well modelled in Virtual Pool

That's a good idea.  I'll have to try that tonight at home and let you
know the results.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Thierry Layan » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:58:20

I wasn't comparing draw to follow but to 'rolling' the ball which is
definitely not a follow. As you said I think you need as much speed for
follow than for draw. It's probably just more natural for many players to
hit lower than higher (also possibly because the cue ball moves 'less' when
applying a center or low hit on the cue ball for the same speed as a
follow).

Thierry Layani
www.layanicues.com


Quote:
> > It seems the natural motion in our 'best stroke' is accomplished at a
> > certain speed, that speed being the one needed for a backspin.

> I don't believe there's a speed range that's "needed" for backspin
> that's necessarily higher than what's "needed" for follow.  You can use
> quite a lot of speed on follow shots, adjusting the amount of follow
> that results by hitting higher or lower on the cue ball, just as you can
> do the same thing (in reverse) with draw.

> I agree that most players have a "comfort range" of speed that works
> best for them, but I'm not sure this translates to using draw more than
> follow.

> Pat Johnson
> Chicago

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Patrick Johnso » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:43:06

Quote:
>> ... This is well modelled in Virtual Pool
> That's a good idea.  I'll have to try that tonight at home and let you
> know the results.

I did this for a little while tonight.  My limited experiment seems to suggest
that up to a moderate length shot (say three feet or so) you get about as much
follow as draw with maximum tip offset and a "medium" stroke.  For longer shots,
the difference between follow and draw increases with the shot length (and I
suppose this would happen sooner on more worn cloth -- VP assumes new cloth,
right?).  I didn't have the patience to test lots of shot speeds and tip
offsets, so I don't know whether this holds for those variations.

Anyway, my point was that you *can* use more force for follow if you want to,
not that you have to.  I don't think keeping your force up within your comfort
range *requires* you to shoot mostly draw, although I can see that players would
think so.

I think another factor might be the kind of shots we usually try to get for easy
shotmaking.  If we can, we'll choose straight in or nearly so to maximize the
shotmaking odds, reducing the opportunities for non-draw shape.

Having said all that, I still don't know if pros really shoot more draw than
follow.  I think I do, but I also think the difference is diminishing as I improve.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Patrick Johnso » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 11:48:42

Quote:
> I wasn't comparing draw to follow but to 'rolling' the ball which is
> definitely not a follow.

I thought maybe you were saying that.

Quote:
> ... It's probably just more natural for many players to
> hit lower than higher

Even many follow shots need to be hit low to control the rolling distance after
impact.  I think this means we need to hit low more than high.

Pat Johnson
Chicago

 
 
 

"Rolling the Ball"

Post by Dixiedo » Wed, 08 Jan 2003 23:36:32

I'm surprised Wetch used that particular position shot.  A better way would
be to let the cueball come out naturally 2 cushions, then play the 8 ball in
the side, then the 9 ball in the corner.  He probably thought that using
inside english would slow down the cueball off the end rail, but instead it
came too far up table which presented him the possibility of a scratch off
the 8 ball in the side for his next shot.

"Rolling the ball" simply means shooting the cueball without english and
allowing it to go where it naturally would.

Davenport is one of the best position players in the business, so he's
constantly manufacturing angles and cueball tracks to get to his next shot.
So to him, perhaps rolling the ball seems a little unusual.  Personally I
like to roll the ball because it's less prone to error, as opposed to
continually creating angles with the use of english.

Doc



Quote:
> > Most pro players will prefer to 'hit' the ball rather firmly than just
roll
> > it because they usually deliver a better stroke when they 'hit' the ball
> > with authority. I'm not saying they're shooting harder but it seems (and
I
> > do that too) that it's a sign of good stroking and it prevents you from
> > hitting the ball badly. Also if you put a little sidespin (not
volontarily)
> > on the cueball it will not have time to swerve where as a slow roll shot
> > will make the ball swerve more and could result in a miss.
> > It seems the natural motion in our 'best stroke' is accomplished at a
> > certain speed, that speed being the one needed for a backspin.
> > That's why most pro player don't roll the ball often (only if necessary)
in
> > order to deliver a good stroke. I noticed the more a player gets in the
> > zone, the more he hits the balls with authority. Note also that the more
a
> > player is nervous the more he's gonna roll the ball (which marks a lack
of
> > confidence).
> > I don't know if this is the meaning of your question but it seems
related to
> > it anyway.

> > Thierry Layani
> > www.layanicues.com

> Thierry, I believe your explanation is very accurate, imo.  Kim
> Davenpot was comentating on a PBT match between Wetch and Parica and
> accurately predicted with concern in his voice, Uh,oh he is going to
> have to "roll the ball". Jimmy did shoot with follow, using some
> inside english, made the shot, but over cut it and lost position as
> you can see.  My assumption is 'they' do not like to use follow even
> when no english is required?  Here's the shot.

>  START(
> %GN3L7%H_0Z7%Ip9O5%Pb6L2%UD0S8%VN7M3%WO7M2%Xa6K8%YC5B8%ZM8L1
> %[Z4U7%\C3T2%eC3`4
> )END

> Bob Hartman... beginning to appreciate draw more



> > > Why do Pro Players avoid 'rolling the ball', compared to using draw
> > > for position.
> > > Presumedly it has to do more with the accuracy of the shot as opposed
> > > to gettion position. But why is using draw more accurate in
> > > shotmaking? This question assumes all else is equal; speed, etc.

> > > Bob Hartman...needs to know