Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by Bob Heathcot » Wed, 03 Jul 2002 01:16:22


I'm not so sure.

-Bob Heathcote

 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by Brian P. Sweeney, Esq » Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:25:03



Quote:
> I'm not so sure.

> -Bob Heathcote

There's acres and acres of land in NW Indiana which could be cheaply be
put to the purpose of building a real, dedicated, proper, road course.
Imagine having AMA Superbike, ALMS, and CART 20 minutes from Downtown.

 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by David Hillm » Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:58:59



Quote:
>There's acres and acres of land in NW Indiana which could be cheaply be
>put to the purpose of building a real, dedicated, proper, road course.
>Imagine having AMA Superbike, ALMS, and CART 20 minutes from Downtown.

   Even without heavy traffic, you can't make it from Downtown Chicago to
   NW Indiana in 20 minutes.  Maybe if you were driving a Champcar ;)

   That said, much of that land is now becoming suburbs, too.  Not all of it,
   but enough that you'd have many angry neighbors if you tried to build a
   race track out there.  They don't care about "bringing in visitors" and
   their wallets, that's what the ***s are for.

   The best, although unlikely, possibility is that the new country club
   track in Sugar Grove is built to suit major-series racing, and available
   for a weekend or two a year.  I suppose that could happen, since they are
   apparently struggling to get enough $100K memberships sold.

--
 D a v i d  H i l l m a n


 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by Brian P. Sweeney, Esq » Thu, 04 Jul 2002 23:45:54



Quote:
>    Even without heavy traffic, you can't make it from Downtown Chicago to
>    NW Indiana in 20 minutes.  Maybe if you were driving a Champcar ;)

You can make it from the Loop to the State Line in 15 minutes.

I made it from Jefferson Park to Hammond in 25 minutes, on Sunday.

Quote:
>    That said, much of that land is now becoming suburbs, too.  Not all of it,
>    but enough that you'd have many angry neighbors if you tried to build a
>    race track out there.

Um, no. Not sure where you've been, but take a drive through East
Chicago, Hammond, and Gary. Space, space, space.

Quote:
>    They don't care about "bringing in visitors" and
>    their wallets, that's what the ***s are for.

So that's why Mayor King brought in the Steelheads and the Miss USA
Pageant? That's why he's working to revitalize the Gary downtown? NW
Indiana is using the *** dollars to try to get the cities back on
track.

Quote:
>    The best, although unlikely, possibility is that the new country club
>    track in Sugar Grove is built to suit major-series racing, and available
>    for a weekend or two a year.  I suppose that could happen, since they are
>    apparently struggling to get enough $100K memberships sold.

That area is too populated. Golf is fine for these bland Western
Suburbs, but not a race course. If you can pull it off, good luck, but
it's quite a ways from Downtown.
 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by David Hillm » Fri, 05 Jul 2002 00:49:42



Quote:
>You can make it from the Loop to the State Line in 15 minutes.
>I made it from Jefferson Park to Hammond in 25 minutes, on Sunday.

   Good on you, then, but it is 38.6 miles from Hammond, IN to Jefferson Park,
   IL according to Yahoo.  That makes your average speed ~92 mph.

   I don't think that is necessarily a good figure to use for the general
   population.

Quote:
>Um, no. Not sure where you've been, but take a drive through East
>Chicago, Hammond, and Gary. Space, space, space.

        "BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- New population estimates for Indiana indicate
        that many Chicago-area residents are continuing to buy homes on the
        Hoosier side of the Illinois/Indiana border, likely drawn by lower
        property taxes."

        "According to population estimates released today (Nov. 18) by the U.S.
        Census Bureau and analyzed by the Indiana Business Research Center at
        Indiana University, several communities in Lake and Porter counties
        are experiencing significant population growth. They include St. John
        in Lake County, which has more than doubled in population during the
        1990s, and Porter, which has grown by 33 percent.

        Other communities in northwest Indiana also are growing, such as
        Schererville, which has had a growth rate of 16 percent; Merrillville,
        which grew by 12 percent; Portage, 12 percent; Chesterton, 9.3
        percent; Valparaiso, 5.7 percent; and Munster, 2.5 percent."

        http://SportToday.org/

   FWIW, Hammond has a population of 84,000 people and a density of 3,000
   per square mile.  That's triple the government's threshold for "urban
   fringe" area.  Gary is at around 2000 per square mile.  East Chicago
   roughly splits the difference be*** the two.

   For reference; Canada has 8.7 people per square mile.  Bangladesh, often
   considered the world's most densely populated country, has 2200 per
   square mile.  Less than Hammond or East Chicago.  The City of Chicago
   is at about 13K.

   Monaco is actually more densely populated than Hammond, at 43K per mi^2,
   and they manage to hold a race, though.

Quote:
>That area is too populated. Golf is fine for these bland Western
>Suburbs, but not a race course. If you can pull it off, good luck, but
>it's quite a ways from Downtown.

   45 miles due West of the Loop.  228 people per square mile, about one-
   tenth the density of the three cities in Indiana that we were just
   discussing.

--
 D a v i d  H i l l m a n

 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by Brian P. Sweeney, Esq » Fri, 05 Jul 2002 07:27:37



Quote:


> >You can make it from the Loop to the State Line in 15 minutes.
> >I made it from Jefferson Park to Hammond in 25 minutes, on Sunday.

>    Good on you, then, but it is 38.6 miles from Hammond, IN to Jefferson Park,
>    IL according to Yahoo.  That makes your average speed ~92 mph.

If you know Chicago, you don't have to look at a map. It's not 38.6
miles.

It's 10 miles from Jeff Park to the Loop and another 15 miles from the
Loop to Hammond. That's 25 miles.

You know the exit for the Skyway, right?

Quote:
>    I don't think that is necessarily a good figure to use for the general
>    population.

Well, the general population coming from Jeff Park would know it's not
39 miles.

Quote:
> >Um, no. Not sure where you've been, but take a drive through East
> >Chicago, Hammond, and Gary. Space, space, space.

>    "BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- New population estimates for Indiana indicate
>    that many Chicago-area residents are continuing to buy homes on the
>    Hoosier side of the Illinois/Indiana border, likely drawn by lower
>    property taxes."

Great. What does this have to do with the cities I mentioned? Are you
even familiar with NW Indiana?

Quote:
>    Other communities in northwest Indiana also are growing, such as
>    Schererville, which has had a growth rate of 16 percent; Merrillville,
>    which grew by 12 percent; Portage, 12 percent; Chesterton, 9.3
>    percent; Valparaiso, 5.7 percent; and Munster, 2.5 percent."

All the cities you listed are South and East of the towns I noted. Do
you make it over to NW Indiana much?

Quote:
> >That area is too populated. Golf is fine for these bland Western
> >Suburbs, but not a race course. If you can pull it off, good luck, but
> >it's quite a ways from Downtown.

>    45 miles due West of the Loop.  228 people per square mile, about one-
>    tenth the density of the three cities in Indiana that we were just
>    discussing.

Dude, um, do you live in or around Chicago? Seems like you're not
getting it. By your logic, a CART race would be great in Lake Bluff.
Sugar Grove stands no chance of holding an auto race. Too crowded and
the purpose is inconsistent with the new developments. By contrast, East
Chicago, Hammond and Gary have tons of open, idle, space.

Next time you're in Chicago, take a drive, and have a look for yourself.

 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by David Hillm » Fri, 05 Jul 2002 09:23:22



Quote:
>If you know Chicago, you don't have to look at a map. It's not 38.6
>miles.

>It's 10 miles from Jeff Park to the Loop and another 15 miles from the
>Loop to Hammond. That's 25 miles.

>You know the exit for the Skyway, right?

   So Yahoo's mapping engine is broken?  Even if we use the NW corner of
   Hammond, that saves maybe 6 miles.  We're still talking almost 33 miles.
   That'd still require 80 miles an hour, which isn't possible most of
   the time of those expressways.

   Tell you what; you give me a route from Jefferson Park to Hammond, and
   I'll drive it next week and report back with the mileage.

Quote:
>Great. What does this have to do with the cities I mentioned? Are you
>even familiar with NW Indiana?
[snip]
>All the cities you listed are South and East of the towns I noted. Do
>you make it over to NW Indiana much?

   If towns south and east ( farther away from Chicago ) are seeing an
   influx of commuters, why do you think there are hundreds of beautiful
   acres of open space closer to the city?  You think people want to have
   a 50 mile commute?

   No comment on the population density numbers?

Quote:
>Dude, um, do you live in or around Chicago? Seems like you're not
>getting it. By your logic, a CART race would be great in Lake Bluff.
>Sugar Grove stands no chance of holding an auto race. Too crowded and
>the purpose is inconsistent with the new developments. By contrast, East
>Chicago, Hammond and Gary have tons of open, idle, space.

>Next time you're in Chicago, take a drive, and have a look for yourself.

   Dude, um, you know that they are building a race track in Sugar Grove,
   right?

   Okay, technically they've annexed the land to Joliet, so the taxes
   will pay for infrastruture upgrades apparently, but the land used to be
   in Sugar Grove.  Joliet, btw, is where they just recently built a few
   race tracks in the middle of cornfield.

   As of March, "The property has been purchased, the zoning is in place and
   the final engineering work is being done for this ambitious facility."
   It is supposed to be open next Spring.

   OTOH, no one is building any race tracks on your alleged open land
   in NW Indiana.  You'd think that, say, Dan Schnitta would have put his
   new race track ( Gingerman ) there, instead of way up in Michigan,
   wouldn't you?

--
 D a v i d  H i l l m a n

 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by Brian P. Sweeney, Esq » Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:55:16



Quote:
>    So Yahoo's mapping engine is broken?  Even if we use the NW corner of
>    Hammond, that saves maybe 6 miles.  We're still talking almost 33 miles.
>    That'd still require 80 miles an hour, which isn't possible most of
>    the time of those expressways.

You're becoming tedious. Do you live in Chicago? If not, then let this
go, because you're making no sense on anything you say.

From 5600 W. Foster to Whiting, IN is 27 miles. Hammond comes before
Whiting.

Will you please go away? I know quite a bit about this.

Quote:
>    Tell you what; you give me a route from Jefferson Park to Hammond, and
>    I'll drive it next week and report back with the mileage.

Damn, boy. You should know it.

Quote:
>    If towns south and east ( farther away from Chicago ) are seeing an
>    influx of commuters, why do you think there are hundreds of beautiful
>    acres of open space closer to the city?  You think people want to have
>    a 50 mile commute?

So Pilsen is nicer than Lake Forest? Check your logic, please.

Quote:

>    No comment on the population density numbers?

You compared Hammond to Canada. You had to be joking. I'm having a very
difficult time taking you seriously.

Quote:
>    Dude, um, you know that they are building a race track in Sugar Grove,
>    right?

Check with me in 7 years to see the neighborhood lawsuit against the
track. Do you have any idea what that natural progression is in the
Chicago 'burbs? Unless you 1) want to keep it industrial, or 2) want to
keep it a shithole, a track will quickly be seen as a non-conforming
community use.

Quote:
>    Okay, technically they've annexed the land to Joliet, so the taxes
>    will pay for infrastruture upgrades apparently, but the land used to be
>    in Sugar Grove.  Joliet, btw, is where they just recently built a few
>    race tracks in the middle of cornfield.

You have to be making this up? They gave these people a budget?

Quote:
>    As of March, "The property has been purchased, the zoning is in place and
>    the final engineering work is being done for this ambitious facility."
>    It is supposed to be open next Spring.

Good luck.

Quote:
>    OTOH, no one is building any race tracks on your alleged open land
>    in NW Indiana.  You'd think that, say, Dan Schnitta would have put his
>    new race track ( Gingerman ) there, instead of way up in Michigan,
>    wouldn't you?

Based on what logic? Gingerman is a club track, not a major league
facility. Differing budgets and objectives. Don't really think we share
the same ambition here, Dave.
 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by David Hillm » Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:38:04



Quote:
>You're becoming tedious. Do you live in Chicago? If not, then let this
>go, because you're making no sense on anything you say.

   I live in the suburbs.  Haven't lived in the city proper for a few years
   now.

Quote:
>From 5600 W. Foster to Whiting, IN is 27 miles. Hammond comes before
>Whiting.
>Will you please go away? I know quite a bit about this.

   You think there's wide open space, on the order of 300 contiguous
   acres in northwest Hammond?  How many of those acres aren't covered with
   the stench that Hammond is famous for?  Sounds like Toronto all-year
   long.

Quote:
>You compared Hammond to Canada. You had to be joking. I'm having a very
>difficult time taking you seriously.

   I gave you a range, for reference.  Canada at ~9 people was the low end,
   Bangladesh at 2200 was the high end.  The average for the three towns
   you mentioned is higher than Bangladesh, the 2nd most densely populated
   country in the world.  Only Monaco at 43,000 is higher.  Chicago is at
   13K, or roughly 4 times the Indiana towns in question.

Quote:
>Check with me in 7 years to see the neighborhood lawsuit against the
>track. Do you have any idea what that natural progression is in the
>Chicago 'burbs? Unless you 1) want to keep it industrial, or 2) want to
>keep it a shithole, a track will quickly be seen as a non-conforming
>community use.

   I believe they've already gone down the lawsuit road, which is partly
   why the land is no longer "Sugar Grove", but "Joliet".  Joliet, if you'll
   recall, seems to have no problem with people building racetracks, and
   has had two built in the last 3 years ( Route 66 and Chicagoland ).

   This new site is 2 miles from Chicagoland, and from what I've seen, there
   isn't much but corn and Interstates within 2 miles.

Quote:
>You have to be making this up? They gave these people a budget?

   http://www.autobahncountryclub.net  They've had a full page ad in the
   Chicago Region Sports Car Club of America newsletter for months, among
   others.

Quote:
>Good luck.

   At $100K for a lifetime membership ( or $3K for an annual ), I'll probably
   never use the facility, but I still hope they build it.  Thanks for the
   best wishes.

Quote:
>Based on what logic? Gingerman is a club track, not a major league
>facility.

   All the more reason to locate it closer to Chicago, where most of their
   business comes from ( and the owner, too ).  No one cares if a club track
   is in an ugly, smelly place like Gary or Hammond, as long as they can
   run there cheap.

Quote:
>Differing budgets and objectives. Don't really think we share
>the same ambition here, Dave.

   What has ambition got do with this?  No one is building any sort of track
   on this alleged open land in NW Indiana, whether it is a club track or a
   motorsports country club, or an oval like Chicagoland.  They are building
   tracks in Joliet, and have built one in SW Michigan, all of which are
   farther from Chicago than Hammond.

   Why?

--
 D a v i d  H i l l m a n

 
 
 

Bad CART race at Chicago better than no CART race at Chicago?

Post by Brian P. Sweeney, Esq » Sun, 07 Jul 2002 15:08:41



Quote:
> >From 5600 W. Foster to Whiting, IN is 27 miles. Hammond comes before
> >Whiting.
> >Will you please go away? I know quite a bit about this.

>    You think there's wide open space, on the order of 300 contiguous
>    acres in northwest Hammond?  How many of those acres aren't covered with
>    the stench that Hammond is famous for?  Sounds like Toronto all-year
>    long.

Really? I thought Joliet, and its vicinity, was the undisputed shithole
of the Chicago reaches? Yes, that is correct.

Quote:
> >Based on what logic? Gingerman is a club track, not a major league
> >facility.

>    All the more reason to locate it closer to Chicago, where most of their
>    business comes from ( and the owner, too ).  No one cares if a club track
>    is in an ugly, smelly place like Gary or Hammond, as long as they can
>    run there cheap.

Now whoever said that Hammond/Gary was cheap? That's some of the best
land in the Chicago area, unlike worthless Joliet.

Quote:
> >Differing budgets and objectives. Don't really think we share
> >the same ambition here, Dave.

>    What has ambition got do with this?  

Defines your outcome. You want a club track on scrub land, create a club
track. You want a cornfield track to attract NASCAR fans? Build it.

You want a world class road racing facility 20 minutes from the Loop,
you need a different ambition.

Quote:
>     No one is building any sort of track
>    on this alleged open land in NW Indiana, whether it is a club track or a
>    motorsports country club, or an oval like Chicagoland.  They are building
>    tracks in Joliet, and have built one in SW Michigan, all of which are
>    farther from Chicago than Hammond.

>    Why?

Economics, son. NW Indiana isn't going to part with primo real estate
for a half-baked effort.

Didn't the Bears want to build a new stadium in Lake County? You came a
vote away from seeing Bears games in Gary.